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Ancient Aliens/Astronauts (fun and interesting stuff )

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BaktoMakhno
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Post: #21
RE: Ancient Aliens/Astronauts (fun and interesting stuff )

1. Life, as far as we have observed tends to spread wherever it can, constantly expanding, adapting, colonizing. Its what life does.

2. Those with the technology to colonize the galaxy likely have the technology to make themselves physiologically immortal. Mind uploading to an advanced supercomputer for example.


@ RP I (and Nick Bostrom) are not suggesting that one form of intelligent life kills any others which develop past a certain point like in some cheap sci-fi. Rather that each form of intelligent life kills itself before developing the capability to colonize the galaxy. You are right about the milky way being unreachable from many galaxies given the age of the universe. But even considering only the Milky Way we should have seen something without some sort of great filter in place.

Rising Phoenix Wrote:
Also, it is a secondary lottery check here:

Civilization A launches probe to a distant star.
Civilization B needs receive A's probe to know that A exists.
Therefore B needs to be in the pathway of A's prove or otherwise encounter such probe before it ends up destroying itself due to decay/crashing somewhere/etcetera.

What is to say that there is not, out there, another civilization which has sent it's own "Viking" into space, but has yet to find ours - and vice versa? Kopfkratz

Bostrom is talking about hypothetical Von Neumann probes. Not something like Viking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann...ann_probes


"The beauty of free trade is that 1 and 1 can be 3" - Titian

"There is no conversation more boring than one where Globaltom speaks" - Triniterias
09.03.2014 19:28
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Helsworth
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Post: #22
RE: Ancient Aliens/Astronauts (fun and interesting stuff )

I believe in a race of space trolls. Hehe


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09.03.2014 19:46
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BaktoMakhno
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Post: #23
RE: Ancient Aliens/Astronauts (fun and interesting stuff )

Uh oh...

When Trini's masters arrive we're sure to be eaten first.


"The beauty of free trade is that 1 and 1 can be 3" - Titian

"There is no conversation more boring than one where Globaltom speaks" - Triniterias
09.03.2014 20:06
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TyPin
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Post: #24
RE: Ancient Aliens/Astronauts (fun and interesting stuff )

I found the theories of ancient aliens allways interesting. However, some of those in favor of such theories take it very far sometimes and construct absurd connections between numbers in the bible, the apearance of angels and Roswell for instance.

However, the definitions of life we have are very narrow and don't uphold. I allways liked the definition of low entropy and energy seeking systems as being allive. But this definition has the problem, that from a certain standpoint those systems are only catalysts to lower energy levels and extend entropy arround themselfes^^

What I want to say is: We have our theories about life and what is living based on what we observe arround us. There could be way more forms of life and - the more important point for me - consciousness. Who is to say, that those are/were not already arround us and we can just not percieve them... but maybe some subconscious interaction is still possible...

09.03.2014 20:28
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Helsworth
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Post: #25
RE: Ancient Aliens/Astronauts (fun and interesting stuff )

A point on entropy... What is heat? Molecular motion. What is entropy? Dissipation of heat. In order for something to dissipate and "stand still" after that, as it were... you first need to have a "centralization" of heat. So from a philosophical standpoint, I like to think of life as podertropic. You have innanimate matter, then biological matter (which uses abiotic elements to feed itself and multiply), and then you have noetic life; the sphere of human ideas which are immaterial, but not separate from the mind itself.


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09.03.2014 20:33
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TyPin
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Post: #26
RE: Ancient Aliens/Astronauts (fun and interesting stuff )

Sorry, I don't know the meaning of the word podertropic.

I allways found those categories of 'innanimate matter' and 'biological matter'
very arbitrary. And also, what is an abiotic element? Are there biotic elements?

I think that life is a construct, that can not be maintained any more, especially if we look at "mechanical" life forms. From my point of view, you do not find anything in the world or the universe that is not allive (but that is my standpoint). But this is all philosophical, I guess. I do not find it important.

What I find more important is the question, if anything has a consciousness, is aware of itself and it's surroundings. And this is the point, where I have despaired so often in the past in discussions with friends, on the internet or wherever. The only idea I had to test consciousness is to test decision making. And no matter on what level you observe, you can allways find explenations that couls support believers and non believer in consciousness.

I think... but does that mean, that I am?

There is a small poem from Rudi Sander

Vergleich Wrote:
Wenn dann du gingest
Durch den Ganglienwald
Und wolltest ihn vergleichen
Einer Maschinenhalle
Erkenne und begreife:
Im Hallenhirn du sähest
Vieles, gewiß, nur eines nicht:
Bewußtsein!, denn dieses
Verhält sich zum Gehirn
Gleich wie der Tanz zum Tänzer.

It is in german, sadly and I found it years ago in the internet. Sadly I don't find that source any more. I will try to translate it into english:

Comparison Wrote:
Then, when you went
Through the ganglia forest
And wanted to compare it
To a machine shop
Know and understand:
In the hall you could see brain
Much, no doubt, but one thing
Consciousness!, Because this
ralates to the brain
as the dance to the dancer.

09.03.2014 20:59
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Helsworth
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Post: #27
RE: Ancient Aliens/Astronauts (fun and interesting stuff )

Poder is from spanish, and it means "ability to" or "control".
Well, here are some fundamental differences between animate and innanimate matter: the former metabolizes (both living and nonliving matter), excretes, divides, converts abiotic matter into biomass, generates internal heat, and moves of its own will.
Also, I do not subscribe to a mechanicist view of life. But from all the evidence we have so far, we know that life comes from life. It doesn't come from non-life. I remember Francesco Redi's experiment with the two jars, with one dead fly and one live on. Of course, many years after that... Aristotle's theory of spontaneous generations doesn't hold.


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This post was last modified: 09.03.2014 21:21 by Helsworth.

09.03.2014 21:16
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Rising Phoenix
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Post: #28
RE: Ancient Aliens/Astronauts (fun and interesting stuff )

BaktoMakhno Wrote:
1. Life, as far as we have observed tends to spread wherever it can, constantly expanding, adapting, colonizing. Its what life does.

And, out of the 99% percent of species that have spread wherever it could, constantly expanding, adapting, colonizing - doing what life does - only a single one could reach technological development, and so far it remains trapped in it's world of origin. There is no reason to believe that if alien species exist they are excempt from being, at least initially, trapped on their worlds of origin as well.

BaktoMakhno Wrote:
2. Those with the technology to colonize the galaxy likely have the technology to make themselves physiologically immortal. Mind uploading to an advanced supercomputer for example.

Which assumes that, at some point, someone somewhere has developed this technology. What if nobody ever did?

BaktoMakhno Wrote:
@ RP I (and Nick Bostrom) are not suggesting that one form of intelligent life kills any others which develop past a certain point like in some cheap sci-fi. Rather that each form of intelligent life kills itself before developing the capability to colonize the galaxy. You are right about the milky way being unreachable from many galaxies given the age of the universe. But even considering only the Milky Way we should have seen something without some sort of great filter in place.

Which again, assumes that mathematically speaking within the given timeframe life that could colonize other worlds became a reality. It is possible that for reasons unknown to us this never came to be - ergo, no colonists in the first place, despite alien existence.

BaktoMakhno Wrote:
Bostrom is talking about hypothetical Von Neumann probes. Not something like Viking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann...ann_probes

Which, again, assumes that someone, somewhere, developed the technology already. There is no reason to say: "Aliens have already walked through our shoes, we just have not walked through theirs." When there is no evidence for that.

Not possesing evidence that aliens exist does not means that any/all aliens we may meet or find about must possess the technologies we expect them to have. It is entirely possible that, thanks to their evolutionary environment or technological progression, they develop in ways we could not even fathom.

That is one reason why I think meeting extraterrestials would be awesome: Because ultimately we will never have imagined their forms or creations. Unless they happen to be humanoids, which I doubt.

BaktoMakhno Wrote:
Uh oh...

When Trini's masters arrive we're sure to be eaten first.

If that is the case, well... Shocked

10.03.2014 00:03
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TyPin
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Post: #29
RE: Ancient Aliens/Astronauts (fun and interesting stuff )

Helsworth Wrote:
Poder is from spanish, and it means "ability to" or "control".
Well, here are some fundamental differences between animate and innanimate matter: the former metabolizes (both living and nonliving matter), excretes, divides, converts abiotic matter into biomass, generates internal heat, and moves of its own will.
Also, I do not subscribe to a mechanicist view of life. But from all the evidence we have so far, we know that life comes from life. It doesn't come from non-life. I remember Francesco Redi's experiment with the two jars, with one dead fly and one live on. Of course, many years after that... Aristotle's theory of spontaneous generations doesn't hold.

You simply describe complex chemical reactions, that can or could be done by machienes who are not considered allive. Go into a factory, where they produce drugs, certain food and food suplements, industrial chemicals and such. Those machines can metabolize, excret, divide and convert abiotiv matter into biomass. They can create internal heat. The only thing that is very controversial (not only in my view, but already in our description) is the matter of the will. That comes down to the question of awerness of consciousness.
You say that life only comes from life. I do not see that. How then could the first life form have apeared. The leading biological theories postulate simple chemicals that have come together to form a self sustaining complex of chemicals, that "seeks" to continue it's existence by simply catalysing chemical reactions in it's surroundings or it's inner self and therfor "winning" energy out of that. It is quite logical, although very hard to imagine, what cercumstances have to come together. A lipid like membran, to sustain a coherence in liquid surroundings and at least a information keeper chemical/chemicla reaction...

10.03.2014 11:48
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BaktoMakhno
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Post: #30
RE: Ancient Aliens/Astronauts (fun and interesting stuff )

Rising Phoenix Wrote:
There is no reason to believe that if alien species exist they are excempt from being, at least initially, trapped on their worlds of origin as well... What if nobody ever did? ... Not possesing evidence that aliens exist does not means that any/all aliens we may meet or find about must possess the technologies we expect them to have. It is entirely possible that, thanks to their evolutionary environment or technological progression, they develop in ways we could not even fathom... That is one reason why I think meeting extraterrestials would be awesome: Because ultimately we will never have imagined their forms or creations.

The argument is that the time between the emergence of an intelligent species and its development of space faring technology is, in the instance we have observed, really really short. 200'000 compared to 14 billion years. Even if it takes us another few thousand years to become capable of colonizing the galaxy (blatant overestimation unless we kill ourselves), that's nothing. The argument is all about probabilities. If something happens quickly, that makes it likely.

If we have done it in such a short space of time, we can expect other intelligent species to do it too given much much longer periods of time.


"The beauty of free trade is that 1 and 1 can be 3" - Titian

"There is no conversation more boring than one where Globaltom speaks" - Triniterias

This post was last modified: 10.03.2014 18:10 by BaktoMakhno.

10.03.2014 18:09
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