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civil rights

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henrikk
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Post: #11
RE: civil rights

OMG that GINI index is soooo out of control!!
A "good" GINI is 0.25, 0.28 is a bit high, 0.30 is max!

Keep your welfare low, but don't let people starve!

Arctos Wrote:
@Devi

the U.N. declaration is not a good source for actual human rights. that thing is littered with absurd positive "rights" that only work if you already live in a very affluent society with lots of complex institutions.

on the other hand, real human rights are negative rights that are meant to protect the individual from aggression by institutions and authority. nothing more, but nothing less.


You're right. But it doesn't mean those rights aren't actual!!! Some rights are universal, some aren't.
Finnish kids have a right to travel freely around the world with their passport, a right to education, an unquestionable right to healthcare and so on.... kids in other countries, not so much Smile So they're not absolute rights. Not everyone will have them, since they can't afford them, but in some countries they are rights since they are "essential".

13.12.2010 09:04
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e7th04sh
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Post: #12
RE: civil rights

Why wouldn't You socialist guys go and live together on some socialist island, say, Cuba? Haven't seen people migrate there. Oh wait I know - it's the evil corporations that trick people into migrating to their countries, so that the labor force is cheap. Totally makes sense. Slightly suspicious, that at least the enlightened ones aren't already on their way to the paradise, but what do i know.

But anyways, i have not a single starvation-related death in statistics. Maybe someone could explain to me what all the different numbers in details mean, so i could assume some kind of a curve for wealth distribution and based on it calculate how it all really looks like?

This post was last modified: 13.12.2010 16:38 by e7th04sh.

13.12.2010 16:35
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Devi
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Post: #13
RE: civil rights

@Kickass Q.
Thank you for putting that right. Indeed, I think, I based my assumption on the tasks you named. ^^

e7th04sh Wrote:
Why wouldn't You socialist guys go and live together on some socialist island, say, Cuba?

Nah, we prefer the socialist continent: Europe. Healthcare is all right too, wages are better, we can call our presidents names if we want to ... ok, I confess, the weather is worse here but then you can't have anything, can you? ^^

e7th04sh Wrote:
But anyways, i have not a single starvation-related death in statistics.

Now you do. At least I can see one. ^^
I managed to get them too when I ran a Turkey template. The high GINI, the low welfare and the high budget deficit are a little challenging.

e7th04sh Wrote:
Maybe someone could explain to me what all the different numbers in details mean, so i could assume some kind of a curve for wealth distribution and based on it calculate how it all really looks like?

Wealth distribution is represented by the GINI in "Others". A gini of 0 would mean that everybody earns exactly the same and 1 would mean that one person owns everything. Your gini is at 0.5 which is already a highly unequal distribution. That's like Nigeria in RL for example. Of course Turkey starts out with a high gini but that's still a lot.


Politics is not the art of the possible. It consists in choosing between the disastrous and the unpalatable. (John Kenneth Galbraith)
14.12.2010 20:06
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e7th04sh
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Post: #14
RE: civil rights

Dear friend GINI is only about distribution. I would like to know what other numbers mean, so that we can really know if it's like "majority starves while few are living in luxury" or rather "majority live nice life, while a few are flying to space for holidays".

Either way i still don't find why the state should do anything about it. You can't do good thing by doing bad things. You can't help poor by stealing from the rich. Even if the game engine works different, in reality taking from the rich destroys their incentive to work, and their work is needed, else they wouldn't be rich.

15.12.2010 12:50
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Helsworth
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Post: #15
RE: civil rights

e7th04sh Wrote:
Even if the game engine works different, in reality taking from the rich destroys their incentive to work, and their work is needed, else they wouldn't be rich.

Welfare is given to those who can't work and to those who are on the unemployment line. Welfare doesn't need to be as high as the living standard but not too low either. If we look today at the way productive work is remunerated, we will see who is corrupt. Look at the bankers, what kind of work do they put in, what toxic debt are they selling/circulating.
Speculators are generally rich, but they don't really work anyway, profits without a physical effect, productive effect in the economy is illegal, it has gotten today to the point when the total quantity of financial derivatives is a couple of times the GDP of the planet, quadrillion dollars of worthless debt. Nobody said take from the workers and give to the non-workers, but rather the other way around.


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This post was last modified: 15.12.2010 13:33 by Helsworth.

15.12.2010 13:33
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e7th04sh
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Post: #16
RE: civil rights

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Welfare is given to those who can't work and to those who are on the unemployment line.

Those that are able to, taking whole lifetime into consideration, provide for themselves, are either gonna get consumption credit when really in need, or secure themselves with specific insurance (not necessarily a kind that in our almost-free market are prevalent, other forms of credit or insurance could get popular if we remove many restrictions of today). The rest, I believe, we should support to a certain extent, but this is not state's business - as i said, give what you earn, not what you take forcibly. Taxes cannot be used for charity/welfare, it increases corruption significantly.

Quote:
Look at the bankers, what kind of work do they put in, what toxic debt are they selling/circulating.

The bankers are only as corrupted, as the state supports them. For example if the state allows the banks to create money out of thin air to some extent, this puts the bankers at better position than other citizens. If i can borrow money from the banker, who gets interest and then when i repay it, the money is gone, but interest stays in his hands, why can't i just do the same and keep the interest for myself? This is unfair, because those who take credit from the bankers cause inflation, that makes my money worth less. I am inclined to take the credit too and in the end we all take credit and we all pay interest to the bankers, but none of us really benefited from it. That's, not the general idea of banking, is the cause of our problems and a real immorality of bankers.

Quote:
Speculators are generally rich, but they don't really work anyway, profits without a physical effect,

Speculators can be either positive or negative, either way they never harm general public. The negative type would lead naive people into buying products that have unrealistic price, further pushing the price out of it's natural equilibrium. They have already leveraged themselves, so if they get the time right, they are the ones who sell the product first. In the end the price returns to it's natural value, but the money of naive is transferred to speculator.

Positive speculation exists too, and happens when some people believe the price is not at equilibrium and is bound to rise. They will buy the product thus rising the price a bit, and sell it off later. If they made the right choice, the products price will rise over time rather than sharply, and thus the economy will be more stable and people ine general will benefit. The speculator earns for making a wise decision.

Quote:
Nobody said take from the workers and give to the non-workers, but rather the other way around.

Well, i call people that take welfare non-workers and people that pay taxes workers. Not seeing where i got it all wrong, can you explain?

15.12.2010 19:35
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Helsworth
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Post: #17
RE: civil rights

I'm saying that the public authority which represents the citizens, thus society cannot let its weaker members die. The nation ought to know and preserve itself, promote the general welfare and public tranquility and contribute to its perfection.
You are assuming a priori, that welfare means corruption, it is not the case, till it is proven a posteriori.
How can poor people be helped to get a job, if they don't have anything to eat and don't have a roof over their heads, at least during night-time.
All taxes and fees that the government collects must get redistributed to the people, in one way or the other, that means to give them working institutions/programs/services. It is not theft as you austrians call it, if it is given back to the people. When society was created, those who formed it automatically renounced a part of their natural freedom, which nature gave them during the primitive comune, in order to benefit from eachother, to benefit from security and to make easier the acquirement of their necessities.
As for banks, the problem with them is not the one presented by Zeitgeist or Alex Jones, the problem is that there is no separation between commercial banks and investment banks, there is no guarantee from private banks that prevents moral hazard. That's why Glass-Steagall was and is crucial for the world at large today, else all hell will break loose.


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This post was last modified: 15.12.2010 19:59 by Helsworth.

15.12.2010 19:59
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e7th04sh
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Post: #18
RE: civil rights

Some people cannot sustain themselves, this is true. Majority of them either had an accident that crippled them or had been given wrong set of genes. I believe it's not political, but cultural obligation that we do not leave these people behind. I for one would prefer to spend money to possibly make political changes, but given a more or less acceptable, capitalistic republic, i could instead spend them on charity. Of course i would try to find ANY way to make these people as productive as possible, and then pay them more than they deserve, but for work. Even a person that is paralyzed from neck down can work fe. on a computer. This work will be worth little to none, but is still a way to show that you're not demanding, but asking for help. It's important part.

As for roof or food... it's the regulations that forbid me to create a cheap sleeping barrack affordable for homeless people that collect and sell cans or bottles. It has to meet criteria that are not only for safety reasons - these are more or less acceptable, if overcautious sometimes. Comfort is regulated, when the alternative for these people is to find a much more dangerous and colder place where they risk freezing to death. I am pretty sure that such a barrack would have to be unprofitable, because these people are trying to save every penny, but it could give them a sense of having earned some safety though work. It's important part.

I will try to understand your position on banking when in better mood and condition. I just failed math exam. :/

15.12.2010 20:18
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AmUnRA
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Post: #19
RE: civil rights

e7th04sh Wrote:
I am pretty sure that such a barrack would have to be unprofitable


And who is paying the bill? Exactly that is part of a states welfare tasks building/subsidize "barracks" for the homeless.

15.12.2010 21:00
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xaoc
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Post: #20
RE: civil rights

e7th04sh Wrote:
Dear friend GINI is only about distribution. I would like to know what other numbers mean, so that we can really know if it's like "majority starves while few are living in luxury" or rather "majority live nice life, while a few are flying to space for holidays".


well the things you are describing are described by the wealth/income distribution. which another numbers do you want to know?


beside: ok, your opinion is that the state must not support the poor and taxes is the same as stealing, ok. i guess anybody knows it now, who cared about your opinion. so why just don't lead your country like you want to and stop offending people who think that the state should support the poor?


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This post was last modified: 15.12.2010 21:50 by xaoc.

15.12.2010 21:48
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