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Experimental Politics

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Killer300
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Post: #41
RE: Experimental Politics

First off, you would be surprised what can be predicted. Also, if I'm on the far left, it's because I just don't trust markets. Ever. Not saying I trust the state more, I just don't trust corporations AT ALL to do anything without regulation and so on.
Anyway, I have my own counter to that. You aren't really a moderate. Yes, you're in the center, but you're still a radical. You are a fan of corporatism, if you want companies to do government functions than it's corporatism, and you take elements from the far left and right.
But anyway, people throw around human nature a lot without understanding something. Human nature is knowable, we can understand it, and through doing so, we can learn how to work with it to accomplish goals. Look, the people saying you can't do a ton of stuff because of human nature might as well make the argument we should all kill ourselves because any meaningful progress is impossible. Yet, we clearly have.
Finally, time for me to actually attack values. I don't mean morality, I mean values, like fixed rules. Okay, values change all the time. Therefore, we can't make a society governed by them and expect it to go well. We must all learn this essential truth, and understand consquentalism is essential to understanding certain elements of morality. Rights are morally useful because without them bad consquences arise, not just because they are good in of themselves.

30.11.2010 04:40
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VincentNikolai
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Post: #42
RE: Experimental Politics

Weren't you the one saying things can't always be predicted by statistics? I suppose since you believe the mathematical approach to predicting things you support reaganomics? Do you believe in utilitarianism? If that's the case you would support the state's actions, since the state usually finds a way to justify the means with the end.

Ahem, my free-market beliefs are not all that radical. The function of the government is to provide for the general welfare of the people. That's it. Anything else that they intervene by creating their own corporate entity's is something completely different, not regulation. Wink Exactly, I don't go radical towards one side or another. I come to my conclusions like I've said a many times before, through solutions which have been proven to work. Your argument has no base. I countered it all already lol.

I also said that all industry's need regulations, the RIGHT regulations... You must have been reading someone else's post's. Especially since you think I would support business interests coming ahead of the state. The citizen's come first, and the state represents the citizen's. Seriously, you have my views twisted.

I said we need to strive for Utopia, and we need to regulate human nature. I never denied humanity to do anything because of it's nature. I said the way we regulate our markets needs to be done the same way we regulate law because humans control the markets. You're taking things completely off base. Me and you won't see eye to eye because um... I'm agreeing with you and you're still finding "counters", even changing your position as to what it previously was. I moderate between both sides, not going too deep into either.

I said common decency, not morality. You're putting words into your argument that I never even spoke. Common decency has been around since tribes, man is here for man. Etc... Etc...

Did you read the differences me and Groam had? He realized you and him would never come to agreement because of completely opposite views. I would say the same, except I agree with you more often than not except on a toned down level.


Politics has no relation to morals.
The Prince, Niccolo Machiavelli
The Prince- A dedication and political maneuver by Niccolo Machiavelli to prove his advice's value to the maintenance of the ruling Florentine Medici Political force.

This post was last modified: 30.11.2010 05:37 by VincentNikolai.

30.11.2010 05:30
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Helsworth
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Post: #43
RE: Experimental Politics

Killer what you are talking about has already been thought off, that's why the far left has so many variations, council-communism, anarchocommunism, socialism, stalinism, maoism, leninism, trotkism, libertarian socialism etc.
Any political/organizational system needs to be based on science and scientific endevours. If we are going to elevate the position of economics to the rang of science, then we need to stop looking at it from the stand point of a priori asumptions, statistics and overall mathematical financial accounting.
Instead of reading stuff only stuff about anarchy, markets, government, read also on physics, astronomy, chemistry, catch up on classical artistic composition, classical culture the classical quality of metaphour.


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30.11.2010 06:08
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Killer300
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Post: #44
RE: Experimental Politics

No, I don't necessarily support utilitarianism, I'm just posting experimental ideas to be tested here. No, you haven't disproven anything to me when it comes to certain areas. I've read stuff on science too, and I'm not saying a government purely based on that is necessarily the way to go either. This thread is called experimental politics, HOWEVER that doesn't mean I support the ideas personally. Keep that in mind please.
Also, the main problem with corporations doing any part of government function is that it always seeks out more profit, therefore driving government spending. So, ironically enough, businesses will actually INCREASE massively government spending if that even a part in government functions. That's what happened with the military budget. I'm not saying that could never work, however it will have to be drastically improved first and won't work for areas like military.

30.11.2010 22:40
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Helsworth
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Post: #45
RE: Experimental Politics

The wargear industry will disappear when it's demand will be drastically reduced, then they will have no choice but to retool and redesign and shift to civilian production.
The object of the government is to have a productive private sector which is rational, that means that it goes for stability thus it secures decent profits for a long time, instead of going for liquidation or outsourcing, going for huge quick profits and long term "famine".
We shouldn't falter from our goal, by trying to pick the means to please everybody, because we won't be able to. The only fair thing to do, is to create the conditions for a decent living for everybody, equality of chance and freedom of expression.
Mendeleyev has a great saying, "The most all penetrating spirit before which will open the possibility of tilting not tables, but planets, is the spirit of free human inquiry. Believe only in that."


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30.11.2010 23:05
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Killer300
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Post: #46
RE: Experimental Politics

Okay, time for, MORE EXPERIMENTAL POLITICS! This time though, lets talk about Marx. No, I don't mean communism. I'm talking about his philosphical concepts. Two in specific. They are, worker alienation, and historical materialism. The first, worker alienation, has actually been proven to exist, and more importantly, can be a serious problem motivation wise for work. In a age of cognitive work, we should start trying to get workers to see the value of their own work again.
Secondly, for historical materialism, the idea that history has stages of development like evolution. We can kind of see this, how in hindsight things that seemed okay at the time were actually horrible, and we should perhaps try to apply it differently than Marx. I believe that religion for example in the future will be looked down upon as an regressive institution. Also, eventually in the VERY VERY VERY far future, the state and corporations will be too because humanity would've developed the TECHNOLOGY to live without the state and corporations.

30.11.2010 23:27
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Triniteras
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Post: #47
RE: Experimental Politics

Killer300 Wrote:
Secondly, for historical materialism, the idea that history has stages of development like evolution.

Everything can be perceived of as consisting of "stages", the problem is in viewing history as unfolding linearly into a given state. The photon does necessarily hit the same part of the screen even if you shoot it off in the exact same way, and evolution itself does not have stages of development. Apes can "evolve" into dolphins under the right conditions.

02.12.2010 10:36
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henrikk
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Post: #48
RE: Experimental Politics

Half of congress selected randomly?!? EXCUSE ME??
Imagine how that would work for a developing power!
I believe that 50% of the population, at least, are too ignorant for that role... and not even mentioning their motivation / education necessary to do it!
That idea is ridiculous!
However, I do welcome the idea of a council instead of a president... not of experts in their fields, but some sort of council. I don't like it when a law approved by all parts of a government goes down because of a close-minded president.

02.12.2010 20:39
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Helsworth
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Post: #49
RE: Experimental Politics

I agree with Vincent's idea of a review board, however they should only have to review it, after it was published. The real mass-media institutions only publish classified information, when they are judicially covered. That means that they publish what they can of the classified document, as long as they know they're gonna win in court, they will do it and be careful of how they do it.
Today at college our professor tackled investigative journalism, I wrote almost 2 pages from his lecture on american investigative reporting, and only a few rows for european investigations (because in Europe the level of the investigation cannot compare to that of the US). It's a lot easier in the US to obtain information, especially the inside info than in Europe. Mostly on the old continent the investigation is done a posteriori, after the legal process is already on roll.
If the money from adds, going to the private press were comming from honest productive business, instead of from corrupt bankrupt bankers, then we would see a lot more problems being raised up...
Now about the question of the diversity of parliament, I'm totally against synarchism and I'm totally against diversity, just for the sake of diversity. What society needs is to have informed and intelligent citizens capable of making a rational choice out of a certain supply of politicians and policies. As far as the presidential system goes, the president himself does not make any decision without consulting advisors, without being informed of the conclusions of impact tests (of the respective policies implementation), without a debate of the civil society on the matter and a debate in parliament. Anyway it is a lot more easy for the people to monitor the executive power of one man, than the executive and legislative power of many men. Europe has a tradition of parliamentary oligarchy, the finesse of compromise, while the one put in place of the executive isn't really the reflection of the voters and suffers popular criticism that should be aimed at those who put him there with those policies in the first place. I rather like the system of checks and balances the US has, if the president goes "out of the campaign promise", then after 2 years the people can change their representatives and thus decrease his power, even impeach him in extreme situations.


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This post was last modified: 02.12.2010 21:43 by Helsworth.

02.12.2010 21:42
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Killer300
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Post: #50
RE: Experimental Politics

Okay, the first system I suggested has more than diversity going for it. It prevents extremism because of that half. Also, I just can't trust a single person, EVER. Also, the U.S. system of checks and balances are FAILING before my very eyes. I'm not saying the system I suggested way back is necessarily the solution, however it does have advantages.

02.12.2010 23:04
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