Post Reply  Post Thread 
Pages (21): « First < Previous 13 14 15 16 [17] 18 19 20 21 Next > Last »

The Gazprom School of Economics - Miller Hall of Macroeconomics

Author Message
yangusbeef
Unregistered


Post: #161
RE: Gazprom School of Economic - How to reduce budget deficit and lower living standards!

Helsworth Wrote:

Alexei B.Miller Wrote:
The Gazprom School of Economics confirms that nations wishing to have a better chance fighting unemployment are advises to not manipulate interest rates and currency once you have the desired amount of capital.

Unemployment is a monetary phenomenon. Priory to any government tax, no one is unemployed. Taxation creates unemployment of money paying jobs. The government demands that taxes be paid in the currency over which the government alone can issue. Thus, there can be no paying of taxes without public spending - without the government first putting money into existence. Employing the unemployed created by taxation. Citizens have a desire to pay taxes with money, to trade money for consumer goods (food, clothes, paying utilities etc), and a desire to net save. Thus, if government spending isn't enough to cover these 3 seminal desires of the private sector, there will be unemployment. People who are unable to -net- save will -dramatically- lower their consumption (in order to save they need to not spend, Helsworth, except in stocks.). Lower consumption means lower sales, lower sales means lower production (not necessarily), lower production means less jobs (yes). What's the problem in such a situation? Lack of aggregate demand. (demand is created by jobs, not the other way around.)
Aggregate demand is income plus the change in private debt (in other words, income + the savings someone loses). The rise in private debt causes the economy to grow; however, when those private debt levels become too high - private debt acts with negative pressure upon economic growth (only when the debt is unstable - such as stocks and shorts). And a deleveraging period ensues (only when large amounts of money disappear at the same time). During such times, the automatic stabilizers kick in. Because fewer people have jobs, fewer people are paying taxes and welfare/unemployment payments increase. Thus, the automatic stabilizers are enlarging the deficit in the downward cycle as is natural. Providing the private sector with more net savings in the respective fiscal year. If foolish politicians intervene to shrink the deficit during the downward cycle, then the private sector cannot deleverage. Austerity is religion (what you are describing is stagflation). It is totally unscientific (wrong, it is totally anti-keynesian - the key religion of most economists. In other words, it is anti-religious doctrine.). While the economy can grow via private credit creation - it is only short term and such a growth is not sustainable. Without government running a deficit, there can be no economic growth (wrong, the private sector creates more money than the government. A deficit is not required for economic growth. It only speeds it up, but this speed up is shortsighted and inevitably leads to stagflation). Because all transactions within the private sector net to 0 (wrong. Even if we assume the private sector creates no money, the stock market still exists.)! Someone's spending is another's income(correct). The only way that the net can be positive or negative, is if the government is running a deficit (positive net savings for the private sector) (only in a socialist economy, which is where the saying "eventually you run out of other people's money" comes from) or if the government is running a surplus (negative net savings of the private sector) (wrong, but understandably so.)
(S-I)+(G-T)+(X-M)=0

Thus, so long as you have unused resources, free labor (people willing and able to work), the government is either taxing too much or spending too little. (Only in a zero sum game. You are making very incorrect assumptions Helsworth. Regardless, in the U.S, for example, the government is the debtor not the creditor. The Fed is a private entity that is the sole producer of the dollar, it has control of the mint because it is the only purchaser. Meaning, only in special cases are you correct.)
The title of this thread is spot on Wink "How to lower budget deficit and lower living standards!"

Even in the game it doesn't work this way, I've had 8% real growth, deflation, and increase in surplus at the same time, with an increase in savings. I believe you are overlooking some big things Helsworth, read my parenthesis inside your quote. Also, I realize, you contradict yourself mid thought. You say the economy can't grow without public spending, yet the economy grows due to private credit? The private sector creates more money than the public sector, that is not a secret. The government does not create growth, it reorganizes the growth created in the private sector through taxation, and then maintains its economic cartel through deficit spending. The greatest periods of economic growth in human history were both when Gov. deficits are high and low. You're just trying to make up something to validate complete socialism.

19.11.2016 01:03
Quote this message in a reply
Lord Alexander
Comrade
*


Posts: 1,586
Words count: 238,210
Group: Basic
Joined: Feb2009
Status: Offline
Reputation: 60
Experience: 616
Glory Points: 146
Medals: 4

Post: #162
RE: The Gazprom School of Economics - Miller Hall of Macroeconomics

yangusbeef Wrote:
You're just trying to make up something to validate complete socialism.

"Complete socialism" requires the abolishment of the private ownership and control over the means of production, and Helsworth is definitely not advocating anything even remotely similar to this.

This post was last modified: 19.11.2016 01:59 by Lord Alexander.

19.11.2016 01:58
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
yangusbeef
Unregistered


Post: #163
RE: The Gazprom School of Economics - Miller Hall of Macroeconomics

Lord Alexander Wrote:

yangusbeef Wrote:
You're just trying to make up something to validate complete socialism.

"Complete socialism" requires the abolishment of the private ownership and control over the means of production, and Helsworth is definitely not advocating anything even remotely similar to this.


I didn't say he is _advocating it_, I said he is _validating it_. The latter statement meaning that he implies that Socialism is a plausible system, is validation being that the private sector is redundant, inherently unstable, and regardless completely reliant on government action. I say then, why even have a private sector! Also, I don't know how you can't smell socialism when Helsworth is clearly describing a zero sum game in the private sector.

19.11.2016 02:35
Quote this message in a reply
Alexei B.Miller
Co President of the Ros'Gaz Union State
*


Posts: 2,473
Words count: 362,805
Group: Basic
Joined: May2011
Status: Offline
Reputation: 40
Experience: 1937
Glory Points: 475
Medals: 15

Irkutsk
Yuzhpromgrup
Post: #164
RE: The Gazprom School of Economics - Miller Hall of Macroeconomics

The Gazprom School of Economics encourages participates to continue their thought labs to help spread knowledge and understand of your respective schools of economic though. We look forward to partnering with you in developing academic consensus and strategies which promote development of all Ars nations.


"Hitler wanted to destroy Russia, everyone needs to remember how that ended"

Vladimir Putin

19.11.2016 05:00
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Helsworth
Heathen
****


Posts: 8,853
Words count: 1,597,785
Group: Super Moderators
Joined: Nov2008
Status: Offline
Reputation: 145
Experience: 856
Glory Points: 260
Medals: 11

Leeds
Post: #165
RE: The Gazprom School of Economics - Miller Hall of Macroeconomics

As always Trini, you're arguing strawmen. For the interest of posterity, the private sector has need of Government debt in order to leverage itself. Government debt is a stock, the produce of accrued net fiscal flows. Government spending net of taxes is equity for the nongovernment sector. Equity upon which the nongovernment sector leverages itself. Banking is inter-temporal arbitrage. The S&L system works for the most part with private debt (i.e. entries on bank ledgers). In contrast, the settlement payment system (aka clearinghouse system) works entirely with HPM (high powered money). HPM is Government debt. Government debt = cash, reserves, treasuries (future reserves). The FED is not a private institution. Its independence is a sham. The value of the US dollar is not given by the FED, it's given by the US Fed Government, so long as it gives it legal tender status. So long as it accepts it in payment of taxes & fines, the US dollar will always have (extrinsic) value. Secondly, the FED obtains the paper bills from the Bureau of Engraving. And any profit the FED makes, 90% of it goes to the Treasury, and 10% to the member banks. Nothing's stopping the legislative power to tell the Treasury to stop issuing interest bearing bonds and to tell the FED to run permanent zero interest rate policy.

Lord Alexander Wrote:

yangusbeef Wrote:
You're just trying to make up something to validate complete socialism.

"Complete socialism" requires the abolishment of the private ownership and control over the means of production, and Helsworth is definitely not advocating anything even remotely similar to this.

Good steps in the right direction would be to bring natural monopolies into public ownership, and replace the FIRE sector with a public banking option. One in which loans would be given to consumers and businesses based on credit analysis, not market valuation - and the loans would be given at no interest. Thus, you channel affordable credit to the productive economy. You do away with the negative effects of compound interest on the GINI level and on Aggregate Demand. And any profit the system makes goes to the Treasury, instead of accruing on a private person's balance sheet. You do away with the inequitable flow of funds from high MPC households to low MPC households. MPC = marginal propensity to consume. Thus, the velocity of money is kept at healthy levels.


https://www.patreon.com/SerbanVCEnache

This post was last modified: 21.11.2016 20:07 by Helsworth.

21.11.2016 20:02
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
yangusbeef
Unregistered


Post: #166
RE: The Gazprom School of Economics - Miller Hall of Macroeconomics

Helsworth Wrote:
As always Trini, you're arguing strawmen. For the interest of posterity, the private sector has need of Government debt in order to leverage itself. (No it doesn't) Government debt is a stock, the produce of accrued net fiscal flows.(Yes, it artificially inflates the economy) Government spending net of taxes is equity for the nongovernment sector (Only with a balanced budget). Equity upon which the nongovernment sector leverages itself. (Wrong, the government sector leverages on it. The money is mainly paid to government corporations.) Banking is inter-temporal arbitrage. The S&L system works for the most part with private debt (i.e. entries on bank ledgers). In contrast, the settlement payment system (aka clearinghouse system) works entirely with HPM (high powered money). HPM is Government debt. Government debt = cash, reserves, treasuries (future reserves). The FED is not a private institution. (Yes it is, it was set up as a private national bank to prevent the government from paying debts by printing money) Its independence is a sham. (The only way it isn't independent is that the board members are chose n by congress and the president every 15 years or so) The value of the US dollar is not given by the FED (Wrong, the fed decides the value of the USD. They are planning on devaluing it by 33% by the end of the year.), it's given by the US Fed Government (You keep saying this work, government, I don't think you truly know what it is in regards to the U.S.), so long as it gives it legal tender status (Correct). So long as it accepts it in payment of taxes & fines, the US dollar will always have (extrinsic) value (correct). Secondly, the FED obtains the paper bills from the Bureau of Engraving. And any profit the FED makes, 90% of it goes to the Treasury, and 10% to the member banks. Nothing's stopping the legislative power to tell the Treasury to stop issuing interest bearing bonds and to tell the FED to run permanent zero interest rate policy. (The president Barrack Obama has been doing that, not the legislative branch. And the Fed complains about it all the time.)

Lord Alexander Wrote:

yangusbeef Wrote:
You're just trying to make up something to validate complete socialism.

"Complete socialism" requires the abolishment of the private ownership and control over the means of production, and Helsworth is definitely not advocating anything even remotely similar to this.

Good steps in the right direction would be to bring natural monopolies into public ownership (Wrong, socialism is a disaster and it will always be a disaster. For some reason, when you slap the label "government bureaucracy" it suddenly becomes an angel!), and replace the FIRE sector with a public banking option (That would be even worse). One in which loans would be given to consumers and businesses based on credit analysis (That's how they do it right now, helsworth. If I have bad credit, I'm not getting a loan), not market valuation - and the loans would be given at no interest (You might as well abolish Capitalism). Thus, you channel affordable credit to the productive economy (There is a downside to that Helsworth, read up on the great depression when the Fed gave out cheap credit.). You do away with the negative effects of compound interest on the GINI level and on Aggregate Demand. And any profit the system makes goes to the Treasury, instead of accruing on a private person's balance sheet (The latter is better than the former). You do away with the inequitable flow of funds from high MPC households to low MPC households. MPC = marginal propensity to consume. Thus, the velocity of money is kept at healthy levels. (And then society will collapse, and we'll be back to capitalism after about 100 years of starvation and mass poverty. Great plan, Helsworth. Go move to North Korea, your spiritual Utopia.)


The fact of the matter is that _voluntary exchange_ is _superior_ than the _command, non voluntary_ economy that you are advocating. It produces better results, is sound philosophically in regards to Freedom, and it allows people all across the world to interact with one another with the greatest efficiency and production that the market will bear.

21.11.2016 20:33
Quote this message in a reply
Helsworth
Heathen
****


Posts: 8,853
Words count: 1,597,785
Group: Super Moderators
Joined: Nov2008
Status: Offline
Reputation: 145
Experience: 856
Glory Points: 260
Medals: 11

Leeds
Post: #167
RE: The Gazprom School of Economics - Miller Hall of Macroeconomics

I agree, that's why I want to get rid of the FIRE sector, patents, the property tax, VAT, sales tax, corporate tax, tax on dividends, and mandatory contributions.


https://www.patreon.com/SerbanVCEnache

This post was last modified: 21.11.2016 22:27 by Helsworth.

21.11.2016 22:09
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Alexei B.Miller
Co President of the Ros'Gaz Union State
*


Posts: 2,473
Words count: 362,805
Group: Basic
Joined: May2011
Status: Offline
Reputation: 40
Experience: 1937
Glory Points: 475
Medals: 15

Irkutsk
Yuzhpromgrup
Post: #168
RE: The Gazprom School of Economics - Miller Hall of Macroeconomics


Kudrin Center for Liberal Economics



Moscow

The Gazprom School of Economic: Kudrin Center for Liberal Economics is preparing to commission OAO Yuzhpromgrup to begin trials to test the matrix for the determination of TFP control. General TFP can be influenced by a motivated, educated, and healthy workforce as well as innovation, advanced capital, and tax policy and other regulations that encourage energy efficiency and regulations which disincentives welfare.

Utilizing the available in-game mechanism; the KCLE has been assigned as the consulting group for the Yuzhpromgrup Board of Directors for the formulation of the corporate states broad policy objectives. The KCLE hopes to influence the board to guide and oversee the Yuzhpromgrup Management Committee to implement negative income tax, privatize healthcare, elimination of subsidies, major investment into education, R&D, energy modernization and infrastructure as well the implementation of a tax policy that will facilitate the growth of capital investments into the country.

We believe that the initial budgetary reforms such as the reduction of import tax and the reduction of subsidies gradually over a period of time will free domestic corporations to international competition and the reduction of subsidies will encourage efficiency at all levels. While tariffs will be reduced at 3% each years; subsidies will be reduced more aggressively while also stimulating other measures to ensure income and growth rises as cost inevitably rise with the draw down of state support in the economy.

The state which is a corporation itself will continue to control strategic sectors of the economy and will have the largest effect on these efforts. Namely plans to monopolize the energy sector will a lot the state great influence to modernize energy generation and sell at market rates to residential and industrial customers. While higher energy cost would hurt competitiveness on the short term the eventual conversion to more energy efficient and cost effective processes will leader to stabilized than growing productivity especially if these ventures are sustained by capital injections and an at least moderately educated and innovative workforce. Investments in a more robust academic sector will further support innovative contributions to the economy supported by strengthened intellectual property protections.


"Hitler wanted to destroy Russia, everyone needs to remember how that ended"

Vladimir Putin

14.07.2017 01:49
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply  Post Thread 

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread: Author Replies: Views: Last Post
  An Argument against Capitalist Economics ClassyCommunist 10 468 14.02.2017 18:30
Last Post: Ajay Alcos
  What is your opinion of the economics academia? Ajay Alcos 2 205 13.02.2017 22:08
Last Post: Ajay Alcos
  Macroeconomics in Germany: The forgotten lesson of Hjalmar Schacht Helsworth 1 193 27.01.2017 08:47
Last Post: VineFynn
  J is for Junk economics. Michael Hudson. Free market = Freedom from rent seekers Helsworth 1 309 22.11.2016 17:35
Last Post: yangusbeef
  Methods for teaching simple economics Ajay Alcos 2 396 07.03.2016 17:47
Last Post: Ajay Alcos
  Ibn Khaldun, pure awesome 14th century economics Helsworth 1 434 13.01.2016 07:37
Last Post: Ajay Alcos
  From Kenneth Boulding's Economics of Peace 1945 Helsworth 0 369 10.05.2015 12:53
Last Post: Helsworth
  Caius Filimon Gabriel Economics CaiusFilimonG 23 1,452 21.12.2014 10:14
Last Post: Alexei B.Miller
  Steve Keen, The Dodgy Dynamics of Economics Helsworth 0 542 15.06.2014 15:43
Last Post: Helsworth
  Debunking Austrian economics 101, by Lord Keynes Helsworth 0 1,502 31.05.2014 19:38
Last Post: Helsworth

View a Printable Version
Send this Thread to a Friend
Subscribe to this Thread | Add Thread to Favorites

Forum Jump: