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Hugo Chavez; A Painfully Average Man

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Burz
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Post: #11
RE: Hugo Chavez; A Painfully Average Man

Unfortunately I did not attend the Ibero-American summit.

13.03.2013 06:10
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BaktoMakhno
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Post: #12
RE: Hugo Chavez; A Painfully Average Man

Yeah, link please.

My guess is that you confuse being a charismatic speaker with a lack of seriousness. Where are you from? In many cultures a sense of humor is a massive boon to a politician.


"The beauty of free trade is that 1 and 1 can be 3" - Titian

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13.03.2013 09:18
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BaktoMakhno
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Post: #13
RE: Hugo Chavez; A Painfully Average Man

Sources for your stats or they are bogus.

The media lost their subsidies because they openly supported a coup. If the same thing happened in Britain/America/Germany the media would have been treated the same way.


"The beauty of free trade is that 1 and 1 can be 3" - Titian

"There is no conversation more boring than one where Globaltom speaks" - Triniterias
03.04.2013 22:31
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Helsworth
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Post: #14
RE: Hugo Chavez; A Painfully Average Man

I disagree with you, Calimera.
While many europeans and americans see how benefits disappear for the elderly, how social programs are attacked and reduced, unemployment on the rise because of tramping on aggregate demand, and theft privatization prescribed by the IMF, at least Venezuela saw growth. The country is very dependent on imports for its own internal consumption. So, naturally, it experienced two figure inflation given the international context. Also, Chavez cut the poverty rate from 48% to 28% in 6 years. When so many people come out of poverty so fast, that will cause inflation.
As for corruption. True, it's there. But it's also present in other countries. Especially my country, while others (bigger countries) are doing quite well by legally pillaging Africa's riches, and have been for decades.
Chavez wasn't a genius, and he wasn't the best steward. But he didn't have a sand-box to play in. When the world's biggest empire is at your door, you're gonna have problems. Just ask Cuba, who is still under embargo.


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This post was last modified: 03.04.2013 22:58 by Helsworth.

03.04.2013 22:56
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BaktoMakhno
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Post: #15
RE: Hugo Chavez; A Painfully Average Man

Wait, so now it was only 'threatened'? Threatened to withdraw subsidies? That is your allegation?

Of course Venezuelas human rights performance isn't perfect, but it is far better than that of most of the region - far better than that of the United States for example. Everything you cite is minor by international standards, less prevalent under Chavez than his predecessor and nothing to warrant your hysterical charge of 'dictatorship'. I imagine the people who call Chavez a dictator are the same fringe-right loonies who say the same about Obama. With Chavez they have +even less+ grounds.

I was mostly interested in the source for your ridiculous claim that the poverty rate went from 25% to 75%.


"The beauty of free trade is that 1 and 1 can be 3" - Titian

"There is no conversation more boring than one where Globaltom speaks" - Triniterias
03.04.2013 22:59
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Rising Phoenix
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Post: #16
RE: Hugo Chavez; A Painfully Average Man

Average Latin American opinion: "At least he was not a neoliberal."

04.04.2013 03:17
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BaktoMakhno
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Post: #17
RE: Hugo Chavez; A Painfully Average Man

Rising Phoenix Wrote:
Average Latin American opinion: "At least he was not a neoliberal."

This.

No Allende, but the best we've seen in 20 years.


"The beauty of free trade is that 1 and 1 can be 3" - Titian

"There is no conversation more boring than one where Globaltom speaks" - Triniterias
04.04.2013 17:37
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Burz
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Post: #18
RE: Hugo Chavez; A Painfully Average Man

He could have done better, he could have been murderous.

04.04.2013 18:23
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Roger Mexico
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Post: #19
RE: Hugo Chavez; A Painfully Average Man

Calimera Wrote:

BaktoMakhno Wrote:
Sources for your stats or they are bogus.

The media lost their subsidies because they openly supported a coup. If the same thing happened in Britain/America/Germany the media would have been treated the same way.


No, the oposition media has been threatend in the very late 00', not after the coup.

And for some sources, as you wish:

This is what the Human Rigt Watch says:
" President Hugo Chávez, who governed Venezuela for 14 years, was elected to another six-year term in October 2012. He died in March 2013. During his presidency, the accumulation of power in the executive branch and the erosion of human rights guarantees enabled his government to intimidate, censor, and prosecute Venezuelans who criticized the president or thwarted his political agenda. President Chávez and his supporters used their powers in a wide range of cases involving the judiciary, the media, and human rights defenders. Prison violence and police abuse remain serious problems."
Source: http://www.hrw.org/americas/venezuela

About the many food shortages and inflation..
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/02/09/wor...lation.xml

Some more media opression...
http://www.eluniversal.com/2010/01/26/en...2891.shtml

I can make the lost indefinete if you want?



So a government that inherited high levels of corruption still had a corruption problem, it retained mild aspects of "martial law" authoritarian paranoia after some of its opponents tried to overthrow it by force, and it responded to shortages caused by overvaluation of its currency by devaluing its currency?

Shocking.

I mean, what kind of totalitarian nightmare are you living in when people who colluded in an armed insurrection aren't granted access to internal government information?

That's why the Dept of Homeland Security lets members of the KKK and the Puerto Rican nationalists who bombed the World Trade Center in 1993 come in and rifle through its file cabinets whenever they want. What the else are they going to do? Send them all to gulags?

04.04.2013 22:32
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Helsworth
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Post: #20
RE: Hugo Chavez; A Painfully Average Man

Calimera Wrote:
To people who say that Venezuela is a good working democracy: it isn't.

Neither is Romania. It's a cleptocracy. The vast majority of the people voted 87% to remove Basescu from the office of the presidency. The constitutional court invalidated the referendum on a mere technicality, that has nothing to do with democracy. The ruling party - the one that defended Basescu, changed the referendum law to have a minimum 51% turnout of the population in order to pass, despite the fact that politicians are not elected in parliament, presidency or mayors with a 51% turnout. And furthermore, voting in Romania is not compulsory.
So we got stuck with Basescu. He has constantly trampled the division of power in all of his mandates, yet the eurocrats treat him like a legitimate president. Abject corruption, hospitals in disrepair, Vat increase from 19 to 24%, reduction of pensions of maternity payments, in short - social strife policies in order to "balance the budget", and all that money from the IMF and the EU went to the foreign bankers.
This is happening in a so-called "civilized" country, it's happening in Europe in the European Union.

Venezuela is not a good working democracy, but given its history as a country, neither is it hell on earth.


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04.05.2013 12:23
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