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Islamophobia

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Malone
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Post: #1
MyBB  Islamophobia

Well, this a good article about the critics on islam.

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While the concept of Islamophobia seems socially responsible, it is, in fact, just a way to further silence people who seek to make valid points against an inherently troubling religion. Islam, like any other institution, must be able to stand on its own legs against criticism. Accusing those critics of bigotry and racism is only a way to derail the more important conversation about the real, observable flaws in Islam as an institution.


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16.11.2015 14:34
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Lord Alexander
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Post: #2
RE: Islamophobia

People use the term Islamophobia in various ways, but for me it has two meanings:

1. Xenophobia against Muslims, discrimination against them, and the support of such discrimination, especially in cases when it is not part of general discrimination against the followers of all organized religions.

For example, when the person is proposing to ban the selling of Halal foods to discourage the arrival of Muslims without proposing similar restrictions for other religions s/he is demonstrating Islamophobia.

2. Very biased and aggressive criticism of Islam, for example aggressive misinterpretation of it or evaluating it on the basis of some standards without applying the same standards to evaluate other religions, such as Judaism and Christianity.

In many cases unreasonable arguments are mixed with reasonable ones, so this meaning is much more imprecise and open for different interpretations. And in any case it is much less serious transgression than the one that is described by the first meaning of the word.

16.11.2015 17:07
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Edvard Kardelj
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Post: #3
RE: Islamophobia

All religions are inherently troubling. Islam is certainly no exception. I would however call your attention to the life work of Meir Kahane. Or Eric Rudolph. Or Timothy McVeigh. Organizations like Operation Rescue endorse the murder of medical providers who perform abortion procedures. So do television hosts like Bill O'Reilly. Pastors like Richard Girnt Butler advocate the mass slaughter of non-whites. So does Matthew Hale. Groups like The Order carry those murders out. GLBT people in Russia have more to fear from Orthodox Christianity than they do from Islam. Women in Colorado Springs have more to worry from the Fundamentalist LDS than they do from any mufti.

Religions glorify violence and demonize sex. In that sense, they are all death cults. This tendency pervades every aspect of society. Even on Ars Regendi, in these very forums, we are free to post discussions and images of gore and bloodshed, truly horrific and unnatural things. But one mention of a penis gets you, Malone, to issue directives against it, for fear that children might be corrupted. Sex bad. Death good.

Well, you're not alone in that sentiment. ISIS shares it.

16.11.2015 17:07
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AntyCrist
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Post: #4
RE: Islamophobia

Edvard Kardelj Wrote:
All religions are inherently troubling. Islam is certainly no exception. I would however call your attention to the life work of Meir Kahane. Or Eric Rudolph. Or Timothy McVeigh. Organizations like Operation Rescue endorse the murder of medical providers who perform abortion procedures. So do television hosts like Bill O'Reilly. Pastors like Richard Girnt Butler advocate the mass slaughter of non-whites. So does Matthew Hale. Groups like The Order carry those murders out. GLBT people in Russia have more to fear from Orthodox Christianity than they do from Islam. Women in Colorado Springs have more to worry from the Fundamentalist LDS than they do from any mufti.

Religions glorify violence and demonize sex. In that sense, they are all death cults. This tendency pervades every aspect of society. Even on Ars Regendi, in these very forums, we are free to post discussions and images of gore and bloodshed, truly horrific and unnatural things. But one mention of a penis gets you, Malone, to issue directives against it, for fear that children might be corrupted. Sex bad. Death good.

Well, you're not alone in that sentiment. ISIS shares it.


This is why faith is an act of evil. For that matter respecting faiths is evil.

17.11.2015 06:18
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RinNatsume
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Post: #5
RE: Islamophobia

Edvard Kardelj Wrote:
All religions are inherently troubling. Islam is certainly no exception.


How can you support this blanket claim?

Edvard Kardelj Wrote:
I would however call your attention to the life work of Meir Kahane. Or Eric Rudolph. Or Timothy McVeigh. Organizations like Operation Rescue endorse the murder of medical providers who perform abortion procedures. So do television hosts like Bill O'Reilly. Pastors like Richard Girnt Butler advocate the mass slaughter of non-whites. So does Matthew Hale. Groups like The Order carry those murders out. GLBT people in Russia have more to fear from Orthodox Christianity than they do from Islam. Women in Colorado Springs have more to worry from the Fundamentalist LDS than they do from any mufti.


This is irrelevant.

I agree with you that I do not know of any persons named Pope Francis known for His attitude toward the poor, Pope John Paul II who contributed to the downfall of communism, Mother Teresa who established charity, Martin Luther King Jr. who made great strides in human rights, as well as the clamour of Dalai Lama for an independent Tibet.

And countless religious charitable groups such as World Vision and Salvation Army who did some, charitable work.

I do not know of these names, because I only know of religious people and religious groups who did very bad contributions to society.

Edvard Kardelj Wrote:
Religions glorify violence and demonize sex.


There are millions of religions in the world. Have you examined one by one to be able to validly make this claim?

Edvard Kardelj Wrote:
In that sense, they are all death cults.


Have you investigated the million plus religions in the world to make this claim?

Edvard Kardelj Wrote:
This tendency pervades every aspect of society.


How did you know this?

Edvard Kardelj Wrote:
Even on Ars Regendi, in these very forums, we are free to post discussions and images of gore and bloodshed, truly horrific and unnatural things. But one mention of a penis gets you, Malone, to issue directives against it, for fear that children might be corrupted. Sex bad. Death good.


What is the relevance of this to your claim?

This post was last modified: 17.11.2015 08:19 by RinNatsume.

17.11.2015 08:18
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Helsworth
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Post: #6
RE: Islamophobia

@RinNatsume
There are not millions of religions in the world. I think you're confusing the nr of gods throughout history with the nr of religions. And at any rate, Edvard was referring to today's world, not to ancient times. It's sort of weird to ask him for "evidence" on his claims, because sexuality = sin is the standard in the major established religions. The semitic religions - Judaism, Islam, Christianity - have a long record of being reactionary and they still are.

As for the adjective used by Edvard "troubling", I say he's being a gentleman and expressing a self-evident truth, as well as one acknowledge by historical and empirical data.

As for pointing out the good guys with theistic beliefs, I'm sorry - religion is not faith, religion is institutionalized faith. You don't need religious institutions in order to do charitable actions. You don't need to have theistic beliefs in order to have morality and act morally. But this is not about theism vs non-theism, it's about the dogmas of hate that segregate people, hinder progressive thinking and scientific advancement (you know, the belief that blood transfusions or organ transplants are sins, so I'd rather let my child die than risk the divinity's (arbitrary & nonsensical) retribution for that supposed sin).

It's easy to take stabs at ethnic minorities and at the refugees by saying, Oh, look, Islam contains violence and encourages violence in the name of faith - so we shouldn't have them/ tolerate them. People are too busy being sheep and following the dictates of their sophist shepherds, thinking it's about a clash of civilizations, a re-enacted war between the righteous faithful and evil heathens, and so they don't look at the foreign policy of their governments to understand that all of this is the produce of the geopolitics of imperialism & client-state-alism.
I love the message "Send them back! Make them fight for their country!" Well, shit. Then stop your government from sending aid to ISIS & Al Qaeda!

It is indeed bigotry in many cases/movements/articles/politics. Let's not forget how "civilized" the west was not that long ago & how uncivilized it still is when it comes to foreign countries, who don't matter to their political elites, to the corporate media, or to public opinion. Like the genocide in Congo & Rwanda, which seems to have surpassed the figures of the Holocaust. People don't care because they've been told "the age of colonialism" has ended, so we're no longer responsible (yeah, right).


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This post was last modified: 17.11.2015 11:04 by Helsworth.

17.11.2015 10:49
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RinNatsume
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Post: #7
RE: Islamophobia

Helsworth Wrote:
@RinNatsume
There are not millions of religions in the world.


I would agree with you that "millions" is definitely an exaggeration, but one problem is that we have vague definitions on "religion" and how it should be defined. Going by the Seven Dimensions of Ninian Smart in religion, one which has been accepted by anthropologists in generally defining religions with seven criteria, I would say that religions are practically uncountable, numerous and vast. From parody religions such as Pastafarianism, from Roman and Greek pantheons, to Native American mysticism, to Shinto and Daoism, to Abrahamic religions, and to Scientology, all can be counted as "religion" in the broadest sense of the term.

Helsworth Wrote:
I think you're confusing the nr of gods throughout history with the nr of religions. And at any rate, Edvard was referring to today's world, not to ancient times.


I simply don't know if you're misrepresenting him, or guessing what he meant by his previous posts, but I guess that you guys here in the Ars Regendi forum are not really big on semantics.

However, he did made the claim that "All religions" and "Religions" in general, and did not clarified it as "the religions of today" or better yet, as you guys seem to focus your discussion on Abrahamic religions, "the Abrahamic religions". "All religions" or "Religions" are just misleading and confusing generalizations.

Helsworth Wrote:
It's sort of weird to ask him for "evidence" on his claims, because sexuality = sin is the standard in the major established religions. The semitic religions - Judaism, Islam, Christianity - have a long record of being reactionary and they still are.


Not weird, given that he used the phrase "All religions" and "Religions". And, no, Helsworth, your wrong. Sexuality is not equal to sin in the Abrahamic religions. What's right is that adultery or sexual intercourse with a non-partner whilst being married is a sin in the Abrahamic religions, and that pre-marital sex is also a sin. And I guess, you're referring to Abrahamic religions, since "major established religions" include Buddhism and Hinduism.

And reactionary, to what establishment? Reactionary when? And what kind? Judaism, Islam and Christianity has several denominations, Christianity having 30,000 denominations according to David Barrett. What denomination here was being "reactionary"? Or "reactionary" to what? The established political order, the societal beliefs, the established culture, or whatever?

Helsworth Wrote:
As for the adjective used by Edvard "troubling", I say he's being a gentleman and expressing a self-evident truth, as well as one acknowledge by historical and empirical data.


But, to say that "All religions are troubling" is a blanket generalization requiring a lot of support. Again, all religions certainly refer to literally all religions present, or in history, to construe it to refer to Abrahamic religions only is certainly equivocation.

Helsworth Wrote:
As for pointing out the good guys with theistic beliefs, I'm sorry - religion is not faith, religion is institutionalized faith.


I wonder where you got your definition that "religion" should be bound by institutions to qualify as such. But even though, it still not does do justice to the examples above, as all of the persons above certainly belong to religious institutions and some are notable figures within their religious institution.

Helsworth Wrote:
You don't need religious institutions in order to do charitable actions. You don't need to have theistic beliefs in order to have morality and act morally.


I agree with this.

Helsworth Wrote:
But this is not about theism vs non-theism, it's about the dogmas of hate that segregate people, hinder progressive thinking and scientific advancement (you know, the belief that blood transfusions or organ transplants are sins, so I'd rather let my child die than risk the divinity's (arbitrary & nonsensical) retribution for that supposed sin).


But, that "dogmas of hate" certainly qualify as a single religion as a whole. For example, the above example you noted above only qualifies to a single pseudo-Christian denomination named the Jehovah's Witnesses, and their beliefs does not really apply to the religion of Christianity as a whole.

A single religion of bad dogma and beliefs does not mean that all religions certainly are the same.

Helsworth Wrote:
It's easy to take stabs at ethnic minorities and at the refugees by saying, Oh, look, Islam contains violence and encourages violence in the name of faith - so we shouldn't have them/ tolerate them. People are too busy being sheep and following the dictates of their sophist shepherds, thinking it's about a clash of civilizations, a re-enacted war between the righteous faithful and evil heathens, and so they don't look at the foreign policy of their governments to understand that all of this is the produce of the geopolitics of imperialism & client-state-alism.
I love the message "Send them back! Make them fight for their country!" Well, shit. Then stop your government from sending aid to ISIS & Al Qaeda!


If I guessed correctly what is your point here, you have a point in saying that American foreign policy sucks.

17.11.2015 11:21
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Helsworth
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Post: #8
RE: Islamophobia

It would take a book (entire volumes better yet) to analyze in depth all of the major religions of history, to explain what aspects of them are incompatible with today's knowledge of history, nature, and the cosmos.
I can list many examples of productive/useful aspects and also of counter-productive/primitive aspects that only hinder progress, peace, and rational behavior. At the end of the day, facts are facts. Religion is nothing more than man-made bullshit. It's totally sophistic to say, I'm right because you can't disprove my beliefs. Even radical empiricism allows for the potential existence of a transempirical reality - but given it's very nature, there's no use to bother with it. So I can make up a few dogmas about pixies living under leaves, and I say they're not perceivable by human sense. I can't prove a being of world of transempirical nature, and you can't disprove me. That's all well and good. Problems start when I claim that if people don't start to do what these pixies told me exclusively, I being their chosen prophet, then the pixies are going to punish people. So unless you change your morals to suit my own, you're going to burn in hell fire.
As for value systems of beliefs. Here's a sign that you might be, in fact, an atheist. People say that oh, you can't have morality and be moral without belief in god. I say bullshit. In fact, if you are the type of person who claims: God is good, god is just, god is merciful - that is ultimate proof that you put your morality above god. You're imposing your values on god. If you valued god higher than your own morals, you'd simply say: God is.

I did not expand on my claim "sexuality = sin". I meant, if your sexuality is out of the so-called "norm", then you're guilty of sin and the clergy can label you and scapegoat you and others like you on all the world's problems - and the foolish mob will use you for target practice.
But again, you don't need an institution, a clergy, man-written dogmas, in order to believe in something beyond this world. That's why I differentiated between religion and faith. Religion (its institutions) usually gets preferential fiscal treatment (tax exemptions and subsidies), owns vast tracts of land and other assets, it has political stakes - and is most of the time against scientific progress and intolerant of different people of different beliefs being equal before the law. I will end my post with these quotes from Thomas Paine, who was a theist.

Quote:
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church."

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistant that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel."


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This post was last modified: 17.11.2015 13:14 by Helsworth.

17.11.2015 12:39
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RinNatsume
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Post: #9
RE: Islamophobia

@Helsworth

You are right in saying it will take a book. ☉౪ ⊙
Though I can see that it's no longer worth it to engage in a more intense discussion and contend over your points. Though your points very much resemble the sayings of a standard irreligious person, it seems that, reading your posts, you tolerate much general religious belief unlike other misotheists and the more militant atheists, and that you are just opposed to the effects of organized and institutionalized religion on society.
I wonder why the claim that "People can't be moral without religion" should be a standard of religious people, but it's a given fact that people can be moral without theistic belief.
And, no I do not think that describing the values of God (in accord with standard Judeo-Christian or Abrahamic theology in this case, to be the basis of these points) is to impose your own values on the concept of a deity or God, in the same way that describing the characteristics and attributes of a thing is not the same as imposing of your notions of what is ideal onto that thing. And this assumes that the theist imposes his/her own values on what he/she thinks is God, or gets his/her preconceived notions of what is moral and good from a priori assumptions gotten elsewhere, but in reality, the theist, particularly from the Abrahamic camp, gets his/her ideas of morality from the concept of God itself.
You seem to use a lot of strawman and generalizing analogies, and you seem to base your criticism of organized religion in particular on a single denomination, but which is understandable, as Romania (I assume where you live) is an Eastern Orthodox country.
Again, I agree on your main point that religious belief is possible without religious institutions, since religion (in the dimensions provided by Ninian Smart) is certainly possible without an organized religious body, but I simply don't see some of your other points as valid.
It's interesting you ended your post with some Thomas Paine, who was a deist nonetheless, and deism does not have an organized body whatsoever.

17.11.2015 13:49
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Helsworth
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Post: #10
RE: Islamophobia

Ah, there you are in error. People don't get their beliefs (the values/codes) from the deity itself, they get it from prophets. That's a HUGE difference. Religions are not concerned with rational inquiry like analyzing the traits of fungus, metals, particles, or waves. Religion is concerned with creating its own (for the most part, arbitrary) beliefs, spreading them, defending them, enforcing them, silencing dissent and free inquiry, and ritualizing the prophet. If you really think about it, prayer makes absolutely NO sense in a monotheistic system of belief; though it makes sense in animistic, animatistic, and politheistic systems.
Let me ask you this, if one believes that god is almighty, all knowing, and omniscient, why does such a being require mortals do spread its message? Can't the god simply send it via telepathy?
It ultimately comes down to either - god is all the above, and the world looks like shit because he's in fact an asshole, a blood god. Or god is the opposite of all powerful, all knowing, and all wise - (is impotent). And in either scenarios, why worship him?
And yes I am speaking here in a broad sense, because like I said before and you agreed as well, it would take an entire book to address every religion and type of religious system. If you've read Genesis, something the major semitic religions have in common, you'll see that god speaks to himself in 3rd person plural - and the reason he (they) decide to banish Adam & Eve from Eden is because they're afraid the humans will eat from the Tree of Life, and thus become like them (immortal), on top of their recently found trait, knowing good and evil. You try to put together diametrically opposed systems of morality & then still call the thing (the word of god), then select quotations at your discretion in opportunistic ways to suit your interest. I'm sorry, that's just constant revisionism of dogmas obtained through so-called divine revelation. That is just sophistry. It is just mind control, the dissemination of illusions. That's what I don't agree with.
I think faith and spirituality are intimate things. And when you start advertising it to others and ask for donations and preferential taxation - that is the domain of politics. And the first politicians have ALWAYS been the priest class/the clergy/the seers/the druids/the shamans etc.


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This post was last modified: 17.11.2015 15:10 by Helsworth.

17.11.2015 14:53
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