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Isn't anything ever just fixed?

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Nietzsche
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Post: #1
Isn't anything ever just fixed?

Egypt's President Mursi assumes sweeping powers


So that's how it is going to be now? Not even two years have passed since people got rid of their former president to gain democratic structures and freedom - and now this?

I mean, why? Are people powerless against governments and the military? I assume they are not. So what are things like this about, laziness? Stupidity? Do people deserve to be treated like this in the end, do they want to be? I am clueless.


And don't anyone tell me "Heh, we all knew this was coming." Yeah I know we did, that makes it even worse. People are always saying this and that was expected and there was no real hope from the beginning when it comes to politics - looks like self-fulfilling prophecies do exist after all.

22.11.2012 19:42
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Helsworth
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Post: #2
RE: Isn't anything ever just fixed?

Mohamed ElBaradei has over a million followers on Tweeter, and he's following only 35 people (news outlets). https://twitter.com/ElBaradei/followers
As for that article... I'm doing like Euronews... No Comment.


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This post was last modified: 22.11.2012 19:50 by Helsworth.

22.11.2012 19:49
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BaktoMakhno
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Post: #3
RE: Isn't anything ever just fixed?

Mubarak was an American puppet. One way the US ensures that its pet dictatorships continue business as usual if the guy at the top is removed or goes rogue is by equipping and training their militaries - thus ensuring relationships with key officers. This means that whenever necessary the military will install a new regime which takes orders from washington. If we remember the arab spring, the transition was facilitated by the military in an extremely heavy handed fashion...


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This post was last modified: 22.11.2012 20:12 by BaktoMakhno.

22.11.2012 20:11
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Sheep
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Post: #4
RE: Isn't anything ever just fixed?

Nietzsche Wrote:
I mean, why? Are people powerless against governments and the military? I assume they are not. So what are things like this about, laziness? Stupidity?


Probably it needs powerful, persistent institutions to defend democracy. A temporary uproar of the population can't ensure it for a long time...


22.11.2012 20:23
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Nietzsche
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Post: #5
RE: Isn't anything ever just fixed?

Sheep Wrote:
Probably it needs powerful, persistent institutions to defend democracy.


And how would such institutions be defined? I know you did not mean this - but a dictator is very much powerful and persistent.

As for the uproar, it is not a purely democratic thing for sure. Democracy is about consensus, finding the lowest common denominator. Still, a huge uproar like we witnessed here is defined by a major consensus for change, just for things changing back to how they have been before in no time? It makes no sense. The anti-democratic powers uprising there now might fail, yes, but them coming up at all is a defeat.

As for ourselves in the 'free and democratic' world. I consider myself living in one of the most free countries in the world, with one of the best law systems ever in existence, and still that is not something which is to be taken for granted. We've all been born into this 'free' world. And don't tell me people know better now, when the voter participation reaches 50% or lower the system is slowly failing. And the sentence I frequently get It is a democratic right not to vote at all is just a bloody excuse for being too lazy or too uninterested to vote at all in 99% of cases.

Anyways, democracy and the freedom we enjoy right now is not an old thing, it is rather young. Even in comparison to the last century. This is not about Egypt solely, of course. And it is also not about defending the kind of democracy we are having right now in general - it is about asking what we truly want.

23.11.2012 02:19
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Sheep
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Post: #6
RE: Isn't anything ever just fixed?

Nietzsche Wrote:
it is about asking what we truly want.


Well, "we" are a very heterogeneous bunch of people, with very different needs and wishes. So there is no government which satisfies all of us. Probably it would make more sense to create governments for smaller, rather homogeneous groups?


23.11.2012 02:31
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Nietzsche
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Post: #7
RE: Isn't anything ever just fixed?

Maybe. The whole point of this discussion was the question why such a thing could happen in a country in which thousands of people died not even two years ago in the streets replacing a structure that now sneaks back at them, even if ever so slowly.


When organizing groups the outcome is always most important. 'We' are fine at the moment, quite content. Some have more, some have less. In the western world, we are questioning a system which has lead the way for a few decades - capitalism, the market. I don't even think we're at a turning point right now due to the financial crisis, it has nothing to do with 'the market'. It was just an attempt to explain how humans work together and organize their goods in a big group.


Maybe asking everyone then is a mistake after all, being productive for oneself and due to that for the collective would be the best thing to achieve? Not new thoughts, but then I'd ask why democracy has developed after all - there must have been some need for it, and thus, a meaning and necessity.

Maybe we have become too inflexible? Sometimes it at least seems right for a small elite group to decide... but that might just be the wrong assumption, or the most correct one. In any case, I agree with the critics talking about organizations like the Bilderberger, saying that if there was an elite club of few controlling the fate of many, we wouldn't stumble around like unorganized children in our problems and challenges. I am also not saying having a small group making rules for many is the right way, but critics of the ESM/EFSF for example stated just that was happening, just to name one example.

I think people are relying on democracy just for the sake of it. It is just like the EU. As long as it provides welfare for all of us, it is a good idea. The second it can't provide that anymore - well, it is responsible for all the evil ever happened, and every country would have been better without it. [/sarcasm | public point of view]

23.11.2012 02:48
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Post: #8
RE: Isn't anything ever just fixed?

Nietzsche Wrote:
Maybe we have become too inflexible? Sometimes it at least seems right for a small elite group to decide...


Decision makers should be a) qualified and b) interested in a positive outcome, in my opinion. This can be true for some elite groups in some situations, but often it's not.

I remember an article in a German newspaper, saying that Russia's authoritarian government didn't help the country during the financial crisis. Would be worth an investigation, whether the ability to do hard and fast decisions really helps during such a crisis. Personally I'd say: If you have no real clue what to do, the power to do almost everything doesn't help you.


23.11.2012 03:13
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Helsworth
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Post: #9
RE: Isn't anything ever just fixed?

I think this has less to do with democracy and more to do with fraud on behalf of the military junta. In my country for example Basescu is still manifesting his abject hatred for the decision of the romanian people against him. 87% of all those who participated in the referendum for his ousting voted to oust him. Those are 4,7 million people who voted yes. Yet, he still claims himself as legitimate. He still attacks the USL and still supports him corrupt austerity clerk from the PDL. (who are part of the populars). Basescu's PDL changed the referendum law to consist of a minimum 51% participation cvorum of the population. For a country in which voting is not mandatory. That allowed Basescu to remain in power by virtue of false statistics on demographics. Claiming that the 51% cvorum was not reached. If that's not antidemocracy, and antifairness, than I don't know what is? Local elections, parliamentary elections, and presidential elections - those people are all voted into office without a 51% cvorum of the population. How the hell is it lawful to need more votes to oust someone, while he's been brought into office with even fewer votes. It's a de jure double standard! The first referendum for his ousting that was organized several years before, did not contain a 51% imposed cvorm. So, instead of looking at Egypt - which, like Bakto said, had an american puppet regime in place for decades, lets look closer to home, and you may be surprised. What's worse is that the EU Commission guys backed Basescu and PDL, by virtue of european popular affiliation, and Angela Merkel and Barroso did a tremendous disservice by backing Basescu, by backing the lies his party spewed, and by backing him even in spite of the free and democratic vote which gathered 87% of voters for his ousting.


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23.11.2012 07:45
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Post: #10
RE: Isn't anything ever just fixed?

I am not sure what the purpose of this thread was. I think we have to look at Egyptian democracy to answer Nietzsche's question.

The Egyptian Revolution has transfered power slowly rather than in a quick destabilizing method. In Egypt's case, a quick revolution would bring civil war because the Egyptian Junta has had longstanding ties with the U.S. military.

In June, the parliamentary elections took place. The change came from within the civil sector with the two major islamic parties now leading the electorate. Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood received the most votes with 24% of the parliament. Hamdeen's liberal Islamic party received 22%. However, Mubarak's old party was led by Shafiq with 23%. The voting electorate is suspiciously close and seems rigged because the revolution was directed at Mubarak's regime.

One thing is for sure. The entire scenario has not been in the U.S. and Israel's interest because they would prefer Mubarak. Morsi has been more balanced in his foreign policy. Morsi replaced the former Military Chief Mohammed Tantawi and several other high ranking military officials. Morsi has challenged the Camp David Accords by sending troops in the demilitarized Sinai region. However, Morsi maintains diplomatic ties with the United States and is tempted with massive IMF loans. Although, the latest IMF loan for $4.3 billion was cancelled last week.

The next phase of Egyptian democracy is to draft a constitution within parliament and with assistance by the Judiciary. The process has been very slow. Maybe too democratic? But Shafiq's bloc has been obstructing any new changes. Of course, Shafiq's bloc still has its old foreign ties. Morsi used his executive powers to finalize the constitution draft to not waste time. Then, the Shafiq loyalists took the streets to cause havoc.

All media reports that I have read suggest that the draft constitution is influenced by Sharia law. But you don't have to worry because this is the democratic process. Last night, the draft constitution passed the first round of voting with 57% voting in favor and 43% opposing. The first round of voting took place in Cairo, Alexandra and several other major urban areas. The second round of voting will occur the day after the upcoming Apocalypse. I do expect the rural country votes to favor the draft constitution at a higher percentage on December 22.

Constitutions are a living document. They can change. It's democracy.


"...while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." (Romans 5:10-11)
17.12.2012 03:53
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