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Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Malone - 19.06.2011 23:33

The British Telegraph published a detailed article with the suggestion that Germany should leave the currency union or rearrange its politics or transfer large sums to the weaker countries (what can't be done, as we Germans wouldn't put up with that).

Quote:
German policymakers should take a pragmatic look at the situation. On the one hand the only way to save the euro (without forcing out the Mediterraneans) is to make it a transfer union. They would have to absorb enormous long-term costs to support their weaker siblings – either in terms of inflation or simple cash transfers. It would be a slow-motion long-term bail-out of even greater scale than the recent emergency infusions. And even this does not rule out the short-term prospect of default.




RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - OVERSIER - 19.06.2011 23:39

Malone Wrote:
The British Telegraph published a detailed article with the suggestion that Germany should leave the currency union or rearrange its politics or transfer large sums to the weaker countries (what can't be done, as we Germans wouldn't put up with that).

Quote:
German policymakers should take a pragmatic look at the situation. On the one hand the only way to save the euro (without forcing out the Mediterraneans) is to make it a transfer union. They would have to absorb enormous long-term costs to support their weaker siblings – either in terms of inflation or simple cash transfers. It would be a slow-motion long-term bail-out of even greater scale than the recent emergency infusions. And even this does not rule out the short-term prospect of default.


Since Germany had a massive influense over the Euro zone because of its population (biggest in Euro zone) it used that to manipulate European unions polecies to benefit itselve . most of the states in the mediteranian are in trouble because of the industry limitations and agrocultureal policies which have taken massive lumps of profit away from those states . It should be only fair since Germany together with western states caused the problems for them to fix this .


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Alexei B.Miller - 19.06.2011 23:49

If you want a large tremor through the global economic systems be my guest. Otherwise the Eurozone despite it's short-term problem is a global powerhouse and needs to be preserved. Not calling this post stupid but the idea of Germany withdrawing is entirely silly to me. The Bundestag has too much invested in this thing to just pull out. Have we remind you again that Germany is the Engine pulling the train that is Europe along with France of course. France without a doubt cannot run the Zone alone and without Germany I'm positive the Euro Zone would collapse. This sould be good for the dollar but terrible for the yuan and rouble. So please let's be optimistic and try to put in leaders who can do a good job. Not positive about Sarkozy, but Merkel is a powerballer she will pull her country through the muck just give her another term.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Helsworth - 20.06.2011 07:21

The euro is already bankrupt. The EU countries need to be freed from the shackles of the Maastricht treaty. Germany should return to the D-mark.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Alexei B.Miller - 20.06.2011 07:36

They AGREED to it, it's not like the United States where the individual states have little choice but to accept Federal Clauses the EU nations are still sovereign and weren't 'forced' to do anything. As much as it would help in the ultra long term Germany won't be seeing the D-Mark anytime soon it's too costly to convert Germany's vast euro holdings into a currency whose interim value will be faceless! The EU has too much of burden between the cost of PIGS, Gazprom Smile, and Libya to even think about something as frivolous as currency revert.

Besides they can have autonomy. The European Central Bank would merely have to relinquish it's jurisdiction over Germany or the Bundestag could easily elevate the domestic central bank to 'governing bank' status. I'm not going into what processes they would take over it's obvious. I will say again the EZ the EU nations are not 'shackled' to anything look at the UK. They have their currency and are doing just as bad as other EU countries. The change should be in membership. Kick out those pesky pigs until they fix their problems. Slap up the interest rate (yes it will stem growth but at guarantee that euro will be safe). All of this can be done without inflation. Damn i'm good!


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Helsworth - 20.06.2011 10:15

Alexei B.Miller Wrote:
They AGREED to it, it's not like the United States where the individual states have little choice but to accept Federal Clauses the EU nations are still sovereign and weren't 'forced' to do anything. As much as it would help in the ultra long term Germany won't be seeing the D-Mark anytime soon it's too costly to convert Germany's vast euro holdings into a currency whose interim value will be faceless! The EU has too much of burden between the cost of PIGS, Gazprom Smile, and Libya to even think about something as frivolous as currency revert.

Besides they can have autonomy. The European Central Bank would merely have to relinquish it's jurisdiction over Germany or the Bundestag could easily elevate the domestic central bank to 'governing bank' status. I'm not going into what processes they would take over it's obvious. I will say again the EZ the EU nations are not 'shackled' to anything look at the UK. They have their currency and are doing just as bad as other EU countries. The change should be in membership. Kick out those pesky pigs until they fix their problems. Slap up the interest rate (yes it will stem growth but at guarantee that euro will be safe). All of this can be done without inflation. Damn i'm good!

What gave value to the d-mark was german exports, their quality and the known tradition of german engineering. I can assure you that there would be a lot of demand for the d-mark if the political process behind it was serious and determined. In Article 103 of the Maastricht Treaty, it states that “any ... type of credit facility with the ECB or with the central banks of the Member States ... in favor of Community institutions or bodies, central governments, regional, local or other public authorities, other bodies governed by public law, or public undertakings of Member States shall be prohibited.” Article 104a further specifies that private banks are not permitted to provide credit to governments and other public institutions at discounted rates.
The member states can't form and direct capital much needed for the physical economy in order to kick off a relaunch. During this kind of breakedown crisis the Maastricht treaty is a shackle.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Globaltom - 20.06.2011 13:16

Never, only Nazis and other revisionists want the DM back.

The old warranty is gone, we will have to invent a new Mark
That will necess an expense that is not less than just
supporting countries like Greece.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Helsworth - 20.06.2011 13:37

Globaltom Wrote:
Never, only Nazis and other revisionists want the DM back.

LOL, you're one poor soul.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Globaltom - 20.06.2011 13:41

Helsworth Wrote:

Globaltom Wrote:
Never, only Nazis and other revisionists want the DM back.

LOL, you're one poor soul.

No deffinitly not schmoll

But whitch parties want the DM most?
Small ones like NPD , REP , DKP and so on



bzw. what are you MLPD ?


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Helsworth - 20.06.2011 13:57

Fuck the parties, it's about retaining economic sovereignty from a bankrupt currency and superstate institution such as the ECB. Listen to the people and what they want. Those who serve to protect the inter alpha group and its fake and illegitimate claims and debts at the expense of the people are the real nazis who want to commit genocide against the world.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Globaltom - 20.06.2011 14:07

Helsworth Wrote:
Fuck the parties, it's about retaining economic sovereignty from a bankrupt currency and superstate institution such as the ECB. Listen to the people and what they want. Those who serve to protect the inter alpha group and its fake and illegitimate claims and debts at the expense of the people are the real nazis who want to commit genocide against the world.


Oh my gosh Grind what are you talking ?
Which genocide makes the Euro , definitly nothing.

Your people think that what yellow press and Sat TV
tell them, today this and tomorrow opposite .

bzw. I also shit on many parties Hmm


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Helsworth - 20.06.2011 14:13

When you put the banking system into bankruptcy reorganization you also have to put that currency into reorganization. If we are talking about a transnational currency like the euro, then you'll have to take it down.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Globaltom - 20.06.2011 14:20

Helsworth Wrote:
When you put the banking system into bankruptcy reorganization you also have to put that currency into reorganization. If we are talking about a transnational currency like the euro, then you'll have to take it down.


I see no sense of necessary in that.

Why shall they do so ?


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Helsworth - 20.06.2011 19:23

Because the system is way too polluted with derivatives. And as the bad bets will continue to add up and the governments/uber-governments will bail them out. The end result will be a Weimar style hyperinflation across the world. The only way to ensure that this not happen is to separate lawful commercial banking from investment banking, that means separating worthwile and legitimate claims from illgitimate gambling debt. Bankruptcy reorganization is the final destination and I for one want that destination to be Glass-Steagall not worldwide hyperinflation and disintegration of civilization.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Alexei B.Miller - 20.06.2011 21:10

" Article 104a further specifies that private banks are not permitted to provide credit to governments and other public institutions at discounted rates. The member states can't form and direct capital much needed for the physical economy in order to kick off a relaunch. During this kind of breakedown crisis the Maastricht treaty is a shackle."


I can agree with this

Alexei B.Miller Wrote:
" Article 104a further specifies that private banks are not permitted to provide credit to governments and other public institutions at discounted rates. The member states can't form and direct capital much needed for the physical economy in order to kick off a relaunch. During this kind of breakedown crisis the Maastricht treaty is a shackle."


I can agree with this


But this is probably so countries like the PIIGS don't crazy and borrow like hell, which would risk the crashing of institutions. If Germany is capable of taking a blow from the worst of Greece's problem how do you think an institution that cannot collect taxes will fare? Anyways borrowing would just be a temporary solution the real fixers are austerity, scaling back government and making massive cuts. I here Greece is selling many of it's islands to try and fight this debt.

This matter is very complicated, but there a number of options. Kick out those pesky PIIGS, slap up the interest rates, impose strict measures on troubles EU countries, temporarily suspend the Maastricht Treaty, etc. Yesterday I read that dialogue between Peter Bofinger and that other guy and he made a tremendous amount of sense. Go check him out....


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Helsworth - 20.06.2011 21:33

Austerity isn't a real solution. The solution is saying NO! to bailouts and letting bankruptcy reorganization kick in. It's the Inter Alpha group which is bankrupt, not the peoples of these countries. I know that dialogue and I don't agree with Bofinger. The whole international monetary financial system is bankrupt especially the transatlantic one. Only when reality in the form of international hyperinflation kicks in will there be an incentive for a new international fixed exchange rate system like the Bretton Woods. This whole thing is not about the so called PIGS or Greece itself, it;s about the inter alpha group which is bankrupt, in fact the whole too big to fail concept is bankrupt and genocidal in its effects especially if an other round of bailouts comes around.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Globaltom - 20.06.2011 22:07

Helsworth Wrote:
Because the system is way too polluted with derivatives. And as the bad bets will continue to add up and the governments/uber-governments will bail them out. The end result will be a Weimar style hyperinflation across the world. The only way to ensure that this not happen is to separate lawful commercial banking from investment banking, that means separating worthwile and legitimate claims from illgitimate gambling debt. Bankruptcy reorganization is the final destination and I for one want that destination to be Glass-Steagall not worldwide hyperinflation and disintegration of civilization.


Dude you are to leftonian in thinking.
1. speculation is not always the reason but often a result,
of psychologikal reactions.
2. There is nothing what can not happened with a DM
instaed a €
3. You ever read why the anflation of 1923 happened,
it was no commmon warranty with greece and germany ,but
an incompetent Goverment that introduce superfluous money
4. The rest sounds a little of sozialism , is that you want ?


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Helsworth - 20.06.2011 22:14

Globaltom Wrote:

Helsworth Wrote:
Because the system is way too polluted with derivatives. And as the bad bets will continue to add up and the governments/uber-governments will bail them out. The end result will be a Weimar style hyperinflation across the world. The only way to ensure that this not happen is to separate lawful commercial banking from investment banking, that means separating worthwile and legitimate claims from illgitimate gambling debt. Bankruptcy reorganization is the final destination and I for one want that destination to be Glass-Steagall not worldwide hyperinflation and disintegration of civilization.


Do you are to leftonian in thinking.
1. speculation is not always the reason but often a result,
of psychologikal reactions.
2. There is nothing what can not happened with a DM
instaed a €
3. You ever read why teh anflation of 1923 happened,
it was no commmon warranty with greece and germany ,but
an incompetent Goverment that introduce superfluous money
4. The rest sounds a little of sozialism , is that you want ?

You understood nothing of what I said. You think that everyone who doesn't agree with the way the world's finances are runned, that he is a socialist, a lover of the soviet union a hater of capitalism and what not. It's insane to sacrifice the future for the illusion of momentary present nominal gains. The Weimar Republic's downfall was rooted with the creditors of the Versaille Treaty. The conditions were made to allow such a crisis and such crimes. Don't condemn only the printing presses, but also those who wanted/demanded/made those presses print day and night. Financial derivatives represent quadrillions of dollar in illegitimate claims and debt. If you consider this issue to be about capitalism vs socialism, then you are blind, ignorant and because of that you are insane. Go fear socialism some more and help Triniteras troll some more...


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Globaltom - 20.06.2011 22:27

I understand that you are an bully ,that insults people
for beeing not his opinion.

You don t want declared a sozialist ,
than tell what you want to be named now and here .


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Helsworth - 20.06.2011 22:43

Globaltom Wrote:
I understand that you are an bully ,that insults people
for beeing not his opinion.

You don t want declared a sozialist ,
than tell what you want to be named now and here .

Learn to write you're not making any sense. I've seen children beggars talk better english than you. Your posts are an insult both in form and content. You're the bully of the german and english languages. Please ignore my posts globaltom, act/post as if I'm not here.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Alexei B.Miller - 21.06.2011 00:26

Maybe it's best that world ends >.>


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - OVERSIER - 21.06.2011 00:49

Helsworth Wrote:

Globaltom Wrote:
I understand that you are an bully ,that insults people
for beeing not his opinion.

You don t want declared a sozialist ,
than tell what you want to be named now and here .

Learn to write you're not making any sense. I've seen children beggars talk better english than you. Your posts are an insult both in form and content. You're the bully of the german and english languages. Please ignore my posts globaltom, act/post as if I'm not here.


LachwegHahahaDaumenhoch


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - BigBob89 - 21.06.2011 11:48

I do not want to leave any comment on the childish clash between Globaltom and Helsworth. I would rather want to question, how people evaluate that Germany can take the burden of the Euro zone. Most of the world's countries (including "mighty Germany") are highly in dept. I cannot see a solution in putting all burden on Germany. Not to talk about, that many Germans are already mad about helping and maintaining Europe. Even if those thoughts just come out of being ill-informed, the German people will not accept taking more burden without resisting. I feel that some of of us users in this forum forget, that we are talking about people.

Though I do not like the way, Globaltom writes (language and content), I have to mention that he is right in terms of the D-Mark. A currency needs the trust of its people. Money is all about trust. If I do not think, that I can buy everything with my money, I will not use it. I think, most of you already know this. That is why you cannot go back to the D-Mark. It is true, that only Nazi parties want the D-Mark back. If there should be a new German currency, it really should not be called "Deutsche Mark" again. Also: many people were upset about another change of currency, when the Euro came to Germany. You cannot introduce a new currency just to wait for Greece and the other mediterranean countries. A currency should be trustable and durable.

Also, I do not think that the currency is the real problem. Another currency system would make our problems look different from now, but it would not be a solution. I fear to be taken in by idiots, but I see some truth in the opinion, that interest is the real problem. I still try to understand, how money is introduced to people. I think it is remarkable, that I actually have problems in finding out about this. Should the truth about our money system not be easy to understand? I believe that our problems are not obvious, they are hidden in the complexity of our world.


Sincerely,

BigBob


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Globaltom - 21.06.2011 12:57

Helsworth Wrote:

Globaltom Wrote:
I understand that you are an bully ,that insults people
for beeing not his opinion.

You don t want declared a sozialist ,
than tell what you want to be named now and here .

Learn to write you're not making any sense. I've seen children beggars talk better english than you. Your posts are an insult both in form and content. You're the bully of the german and english languages. Please ignore my posts globaltom, act/post as if I'm not here.

Oh they make sense, if people like you want to read
critikal things. But its a problem that many not you
show theire intolerants and ignorance by answering like this .


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Helsworth - 21.06.2011 13:03

Globaltom Wrote:
Oh they make sense, if people like you want to read
critikal things. But its a probpem that many not you
show theire intolerants and ignorance by answering like this .

I just have a low tolerance for stupid bullshit.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Globaltom - 21.06.2011 13:08

Helsworth Wrote:

Globaltom Wrote:
Oh they make sense, if people like you want to read
critikal things. But its a probpem that many not you
show theire intolerants and ignorance by answering like this .

I just have a low tolerance for stupid bullshit.

Strange ! I think the same by your posts Pfeif


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - BaktoMakhno - 21.06.2011 15:42

@ Tom

When people get annoyed with the way you use language (a lot of us do), this is not a cover for ideological disagreements. I have to read most of your posts several times. Even then, I am often left with 2 or 3 different interperetations and cannot be sure what you meant to say.

Further, you very often completely misrepresent other posters. In this thread Helsworth clearly states that he is advocating a return to something along the lines of the Bretton Woods system. This was worked out by the Western Allies at the end of the second world war, and dropped in the 70's. It had nothing to do with socialism.

On top of all this your posts are always full of obscure insults like 'leftonians' - not even an english word. Can you honestly not see how this annoys people? It has nothing to do with differences of opinion.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Globaltom - 21.06.2011 16:06

BaktoMakhno Wrote:
@ Tom

When people get annoyed with the way you use language (a lot of us do), this is not a cover for ideological disagreements. I have to read most of your posts several times. Even then, I am often left with 2 or 3 different interperetations and cannot be sure what you meant to say.

Well belive me that the dictionary was next too me,
but its not easy to compensate, that many phrases
I never hear or listen before. I really try to perform
,but here is the only place for Hmm

Quote:
Further, you very often completely misrepresent other posters. In this thread Helsworth clearly states that he is advocating a return to something along the lines of the Bretton Woods system. This was worked out by the Western Allies at the end of the second world war, and dropped in the 70's. It had nothing to do with socialism.

Really do I ? shame on me blush .Well its depends that
most people I read in German who were against € and
the financial system are left antikapitalists who
want things like sozialism or even marxism Hmm

Quote:
On top of all this your posts are always full of obscure insults like 'leftonians' - not even an english word. Can you honestly not see how this annoys people? It has nothing to do with differences of opinion.

Whas this phrase incorrect ? Well i do not find an bether one.
Which you think should i use for ?Noplan


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - BaktoMakhno - 21.06.2011 16:53

Globaltom Wrote:
Well belive me that the dictionary was next too me,
but its not easy to compensate, that many phrases
I never hear or listen before. I really try to perform
,but here is the only place for Hmm

I understand. I'm sure if you made an effort to understand other posters positions and insulted people less often, people would applaud your efforts to post in a second language. When you blindly call everything you disagree with 'conspiracies' and 'propaganda', not so much. If you really feel the need to insult someone, cite a source proving your point.

Quote:
Really do I ? shame on me blush .Well its depends that
most people I read in German who were against € and
the financial system are left antikapitalists who
want things like sozialism or even marxism Hmm

Again, maybe you should try to understand people from other cultures and their ideas, rather than assuming they are the same as germans who share some of their opinions.

btw, Marxism is a theoretical tradition, not a type of government or a state of affairs.

Quote:
Whas this phrase incorrect ? Well i do not find an bether one.
Which you think should i use for ?Noplan

leftwingers


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Globaltom - 21.06.2011 17:25

BaktoMakhno Wrote:

Globaltom Wrote:
Well belive me that the dictionary was next too me,
but its not easy to compensate, that many phrases
I never hear or listen before. I really try to perform
,but here is the only place for Hmm

I understand. I'm sure if you made an effort to understand other posters positions and insulted people less often, people would applaud your efforts to post in a second language. When you blindly call everything you disagree with 'conspiracies' and 'propaganda', not so much. If you really feel the need to insult someone, cite a source proving your point.

Well lets hope best Smile

Quote:

Quote:
Really do I ? shame on me blush .Well its depends that
most people I read in German who were against € and
the financial system are left antikapitalists who
want things like sozialism or even marxism Hmm

Again, maybe you should try to understand people from other cultures and their ideas, rather than assuming they are the same as germans who share some of their opinions.

Well i will try , but many discusions are sutch ideological ,and
many deny the source of the other Hmm

Quote:
btw, Marxism is a theoretical tradition, not a type of government or a state of affairs.

Believe me there are guys who know that less than me ,
and hold that for the only way .

Quote:

Quote:
Whas this phrase incorrect ? Well i do not find an bether one.
Which you think should i use for ?Noplan

leftwingers

Thanks Daumenhoch


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Triniteras - 21.06.2011 20:27

BaktoMakhno Wrote:
When people get annoyed with the way you use language (a lot of us do), this is not a cover for ideological disagreements. I have to read most of your posts several times.

Tom does not speak ideologically.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Globaltom - 21.06.2011 22:12

Triniteras Wrote:

BaktoMakhno Wrote:
When people get annoyed with the way you use language (a lot of us do), this is not a cover for ideological disagreements. I have to read most of your posts several times.

Tom does not speak ideologically.


Where did he or me say that ?
( I mean the others )


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Triniteras - 21.06.2011 22:53

Globaltom Wrote:
Where did he or me say that ?

Nothing you say has enough content to make it possible for an ideological disagreement. I put forth the effort to make it seem like I'm a communist or something, you could do the same.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - IzyE - 22.06.2011 10:09

It's just a financial crisis, also that will be end soon, in 10 years we are talking about another crisis, what's the matter? The Euro will stay, as part of the grand dream of an united europe ...

The Greek Problematic isn't that hard, how it is published at the press in my opinion ... the other countries who have financial problems, are already solute their problem, Ireland for e.g. has no problems to rebuilt their financial damaged country ...

Stop being ridiculus and talking about recover the D-Mark, the World is an other one, than 9 years ago...


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Globaltom - 22.06.2011 12:32

Triniteras Wrote:

Globaltom Wrote:
Where did he or me say that ?

Nothing you say has enough content to make it possible for an ideological disagreement. I put forth the effort to make it seem like I'm a communist or something, you could do the same.


You are no Commie ,you are a chatterbox Hmm
and bzw. this Forum is so leftwing i need not be anotherone


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Helsworth - 22.06.2011 12:58

IzyE Wrote:
It's just a financial crisis, also that will be end soon, in 10 years we are talking about another crisis, what's the matter? The Euro will stay, as part of the grand dream of an united europe ...

The Greek Problematic isn't that hard, how it is published at the press in my opinion ... the other countries who have financial problems, are already solute their problem, Ireland for e.g. has no problems to rebuilt their financial damaged country ...

Stop being ridiculus and talking about recover the D-Mark, the World is an other one, than 9 years ago...

Great Britain has her own currency and is still part of an united Europe, why can't Germany or an other country do the same? Too much centralization leads to too much power and power corrupts. I would rather have an international fixed exchange rate system, than a world currency or continental currency (euro). Europe can remain united even without the euro.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Globaltom - 22.06.2011 13:59

Helsworth Wrote:

IzyE Wrote:
It's just a financial crisis, also that will be end soon, in 10 years we are talking about another crisis, what's the matter? The Euro will stay, as part of the grand dream of an united europe ...

The Greek Problematic isn't that hard, how it is published at the press in my opinion ... the other countries who have financial problems, are already solute their problem, Ireland for e.g. has no problems to rebuilt their financial damaged country ...

Stop being ridiculus and talking about recover the D-Mark, the World is an other one, than 9 years ago...

Great Britain has her own currency and is still part of an united Europe, why can't Germany or an other country do the same? Too much centralization leads to too much power and power corrupts. I would rather have an international fixed exchange rate system, than a world currency or continental currency (euro). Europe can remain united even without the euro.

Dude Britain was an bad example cause they never changed
warranty ,but still kept the Pound.
So Germany can not do the same ( Its not the same).
The DM is gone ,the currency and the forms are schredded .
You will have to invent an new Mark .
This will maybee cost you also Billions and brake the economie
along the period of the change .
I do not think this will be cheaper than
just save countries like Greece.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Triniteras - 22.06.2011 20:33

Other countries can't compete with Germany, they are untermensch. Germany will enlighten them.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Globaltom - 22.06.2011 22:20

Be so kind

and shut up

you know nothing ,and a lot of it .


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Alexei B.Miller - 23.06.2011 01:21

Helsworth Wrote:

IzyE Wrote:
It's just a financial crisis, also that will be end soon, in 10 years we are talking about another crisis, what's the matter? The Euro will stay, as part of the grand dream of an united europe ...

The Greek Problematic isn't that hard, how it is published at the press in my opinion ... the other countries who have financial problems, are already solute their problem, Ireland for e.g. has no problems to rebuilt their financial damaged country ...

Stop being ridiculus and talking about recover the D-Mark, the World is an other one, than 9 years ago...

Great Britain has her own currency and is still part of an united Europe, why can't Germany or an other country do the same? Too much centralization leads to too much power and power corrupts. I would rather have an international fixed exchange rate system, than a world currency or continental currency (euro). Europe can remain united even without the euro.


International Fixed Exchange Rate will be pointless. First of all that not fair and is just as bad as pegging a currency. Bad Idea. This idea would doom the Western nations. I suggest keeping the euro expelling the PIIGS as they are too much of a liability. A going back to the D-Mark will hurt German exports. Idk even know why this is still going on. The Bundestag has to much invested in this thing to just leave, even if you did leave you still have to spend oddles of money to stay competitive and all that jazz. But's w/e the world's gonna end in 2012's anyways so do w/e.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - lorena07 - 23.06.2011 02:32

I mean the only way is Eurobonds.
We all European must pay the bill.
We must stopped the dept in European and must pay back the dept from all countrys in Eurozone.
But for this we must make one State with
one Governement
one little Army
one School and Educationsystem
one Law
one Policesysteme
one Insurancesysteme

and this difficult times we must make this, not when all is easy.
The European Continent is very small but we are powerfull without the federalistic system, where every can make what he want.
I live in 3 States and cant underständig the National Systems.
We must be better reacting in the crisis as the USA, than become the Euro the stability and Power back. When we do that not, goes the peoples in Yuan, Brasil Reais or other currencys.
The politics must be stronger.
What we will give our childrens? destroyed Countrys? No.
Dept where we can not pay the Noun? No.
What we have, when we cant have trust in our money.
Germany out give an desaster for politics.
How is the dept per person in germany and greece?

I hope every people can read and understand my bad english?


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Alexei B.Miller - 23.06.2011 03:08

lorena07 Wrote:
I mean the only way is Eurobonds.
We all European must pay the bill.
We must stopped the dept in European and must pay back the dept from all countrys in Eurozone.
But for this we must make one State with
one Governement
one little Army
one School and Educationsystem
one Law
one Policesysteme
one Insurancesysteme

and this difficult times we must make this, not when all is easy.
The European Continent is very small but we are powerfull without the federalistic system, where every can make what he want.
I live in 3 States and cant underständig the National Systems.
We must be better reacting in the crisis as the USA, than become the Euro the stability and Power back. When we do that not, goes the peoples in Yuan, Brasil Reais or other currencys.
The politics must be stronger.
What we will give our childrens? destroyed Countrys? No.
Dept where we can not pay the Noun? No.
What we have, when we cant have trust in our money.
Germany out give an desaster for politics.
How is the dept per person in germany and greece?

I hope every people can read and understand my bad english?


We in the USA also need a stronger Europe, we can no longer police this world effectively by ourselves and the UK. We need more than your economic sanctions. We need a stronger more military able Europe. We in America watch how poorly your military capacities are in Libya. The U.S. military is overstretched, overburdened, and tired. We need a United Europe to step in again and lead the world once more into it's golden age! Do not let BRICS, CIS, or AZEAN overtake the Transatlantic Alliance! We must lead this world!


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Helsworth - 23.06.2011 06:17

Alexei B.Miller Wrote:
We in the USA also need a stronger Europe, we can no longer police this world effectively by ourselves and the UK. We need more than your economic sanctions. We need a stronger more military able Europe. We in America watch how poorly your military capacities are in Libya. The U.S. military is overstretched, overburdened, and tired. We need a United Europe to step in again and lead the world once more into it's golden age! Do not let BRICS, CIS, or AZEAN overtake the Transatlantic Alliance! We must lead this world!

thumbdown


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - lorena07 - 23.06.2011 10:28

I have not mean more Military, i have mean more concentrate of Europe. Europeans Soldiers have not to go in other Countrys. The other Kontinents can make self. We must only show on our problems.
pay the dept back. look on our Inhabitans. look that we the Environmental and Energyeconomics build in Future and not still stay in the last millennium.
We Germans want not leading, we want live a good live. We want a good Future for our Childrens and not RIP in Afghanistan or other parts of the World. We lost many Millions on people in 2 Wars and we have bring enough Death in the World. The German Country are only a 2/3 from anno 1914. We live more 44 years in 2 Countrys in 2 Systems.
America and Russians and the Rest of the Allies have that want after ther WW2 now must look that they most Germans Pazifist.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Alexei B.Miller - 23.06.2011 21:27

Helsworth Wrote:

Alexei B.Miller Wrote:
We in the USA also need a stronger Europe, we can no longer police this world effectively by ourselves and the UK. We need more than your economic sanctions. We need a stronger more military able Europe. We in America watch how poorly your military capacities are in Libya. The U.S. military is overstretched, overburdened, and tired. We need a United Europe to step in again and lead the world once more into it's golden age! Do not let BRICS, CIS, or AZEAN overtake the Transatlantic Alliance! We must lead this world!

thumbdown


?


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - BigBob89 - 23.06.2011 22:13

Hey guys,

sadly no one was reffering to my last post. Well, I'll try once more to get into this discussion.

@Alexei: Your opinion is not very popular in Europe. In fact, you bring people against you. The European people do not think about the USA as a hero, a good police man who rescues the world. We rather think about the USA as a bigheaded and dangerous police man, who frequently misuses its power for its own interest. Of course, this is a harsh claim, please do not become angry because of my arguing. But we Europeans cannot see, that "the world police USA" has truely achieved something good. However, we see several things which went worse after interventions of the USA. Afghanistan still has not achieved peace. The USA never really apologized for waging a war against Irac with false evidence. And the Germans in particular cannot see, how bombings of cities can help the Libyan democracy. Thus, the claim of your land, that you cannot take this burden alone anymore and that Europe has to share the burden of overpowered military (like the USA's), sounds truely ridiculous in our ears. At least, this has nothing to do with the problems of European economy and currency.

@topic: I agree with Globaltom. There is no way that Germany can get back to the D-Mark. It is not the same like UK and its Pound. By the way, I do not think that you would find a majority of people voting for such an opinion (to get back the D-Mark). I think the question is: how did Germany do, when it had to adopt its economic different (and in a Western view economic ruined) brother, the German Democratic Republic. We got a common currency far to early, too. How did we deal with the problems resulting in that? Well the truth is, we still deal with it. But Germany is not broken, because we stand together. There are discussions and problems and even prejudices, but Germany is still one of the biggest economies of the world. We have to fraternise even more with our European partners. Greece needs our help, we have to pay the dept for them. "We" means Europe at all! We need to control the European economy reliably and undependent from national interests. It has to be the will of the European citizens that forms this union, not the will of the European nations. Sadly, I do not see that the European people are about to understand this. The more the European nations fear to loose their national power, the more we will get in trouble. My parents always opposed to the Euro. They feared being forced to deal with the other countries and being pulled into trouble (like now). But they also always said: if we have a common currency, we also need a common way of economy, a common way of control, an European government and so on. The current way of the EU is like eating meat without fat and complaining that it does not taste at all.


Greetings from Germany,

BigBob


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Alexei B.Miller - 23.06.2011 22:18

I stand corrected


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Usu - 23.06.2011 22:26

The solution is so simple. Let greece become a tax haven. Then there will stream so much money into the country, that all the debt will be dwarfed.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Globaltom - 24.06.2011 15:02

Usu Wrote:
The solution is so simple. Let greece become a tax haven. Then there will stream so much money into the country, that all the debt will be dwarfed.

Shure ? I thought you where a fan of higher taxes?


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Usu - 24.06.2011 17:15

Globaltom Wrote:

Usu Wrote:
The solution is so simple. Let greece become a tax haven. Then there will stream so much money into the country, that all the debt will be dwarfed.

Shure ? I thought you where a fan of higher taxes?


Am I? No. I prefer a cap for accumulation of capital instead.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Globaltom - 25.06.2011 13:13

Usu Wrote:

Globaltom Wrote:

Usu Wrote:
The solution is so simple. Let greece become a tax haven. Then there will stream so much money into the country, that all the debt will be dwarfed.

Shure ? I thought you where a fan of higher taxes?


Am I? No. I prefer a cap for accumulation of capital instead.


Hmm i m wondering, how another tax oasis will manage that .


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Usu - 25.06.2011 13:56

Globaltom Wrote:

Usu Wrote:

Globaltom Wrote:

Usu Wrote:
The solution is so simple. Let greece become a tax haven. Then there will stream so much money into the country, that all the debt will be dwarfed.

Shure ? I thought you where a fan of higher taxes?


Am I? No. I prefer a cap for accumulation of capital instead.


Hmm i m wondering, how another tax oasis will manage that .

There is no connection. The tax haven status will help greece to get money into the land. The cap has nothing to do with it. I just mentioned it, just because you tried to stereotype me.Pfeif


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Globaltom - 25.06.2011 14:00

Well thats confusing a bit.
The one hasnt to do with the other?
Shouldn t there be a common line ?

About steroptype , this is a gameforum
and everybody plays a role ( even you )Wink


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Usu - 25.06.2011 17:16

Globaltom Wrote:
About steroptype , this is a gameforum
and everybody plays a role ( even you )Wink

Ah well. If so, then book me as undogmatic nonconformist.^^


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Globaltom - 25.06.2011 17:28

Usu Wrote:

Globaltom Wrote:
About steroptype , this is a gameforum
and everybody plays a role ( even you )Wink

Ah well. If so, then book me as undogmatic nonconformist.^^


Shure ? I thought you were ab notorious nihilistKopfkratz


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Usu - 25.06.2011 20:35

Globaltom Wrote:
Shure ? I thought you were ab notorious nihilistKopfkratz

Don't mix me up with Triniteras, just because I answer your posts, too.Wink


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Globaltom - 26.06.2011 03:35

Usu Wrote:

Globaltom Wrote:
Shure ? I thought you were ab notorious nihilistKopfkratz

Don't mix me up with Triniteras, just because I answer your posts, too.Wink

I never do so. Trini is an nonstop nonsense Irre

But guys like you are sutch negative , that i ask me ,
when you are pro something


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Usu - 26.06.2011 23:02

Globaltom Wrote:
But guys like you are sutch negative , that i ask me ,
when you are pro something

Don't worry. I'm progressive.Big Grin


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - DRLHyper - 27.06.2011 06:10

Malone Wrote:
The British Telegraph published a detailed article with the suggestion that Germany should leave the currency union or rearrange its politics or transfer large sums to the weaker countries (what can't be done, as we Germans wouldn't put up with that).

Quote:
German policymakers should take a pragmatic look at the situation. On the one hand the only way to save the euro (without forcing out the Mediterraneans) is to make it a transfer union. They would have to absorb enormous long-term costs to support their weaker siblings – either in terms of inflation or simple cash transfers. It would be a slow-motion long-term bail-out of even greater scale than the recent emergency infusions. And even this does not rule out the short-term prospect of default.

The British are [trying to] doing it again!


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Globaltom - 27.06.2011 13:21

Usu Wrote:

Globaltom Wrote:
But guys like you are sutch negative , that i ask me ,
when you are pro something

Don't worry. I'm progressive.Big Grin


Well im looking for, of diskussing the
most progressive way Smile


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Commissar - 29.06.2011 11:36

The IMF is claiming that only austerity measures will save Greece. But I say that this is a lie. Greece is in the pocket of international banking interests and needs a regime change.

The example of Iceland informs us that when an economy collapses, it can be rebuilt from scratch, so to speak. That means evicting the IMF, ECB and the EU.

Greece should leave the Eurozone and return to the drachma. European banks own Greek debt so they would be losers. But Wall Street banksters own even more Greek debt because they insured the European banks. Greece needs to default on their debt and Wall Street would be the biggest loser. Greece has 111 tons of gold so they could have a fresh start by monetizing their new currency. Greece would still be able to attract major investment with their world class drachma. Greece should follow the Iceland example.

Argentina is another good example of a country that defaulted and bounced back. Nations shouldn't worry about attracting foreign capital just because they defaulted. It's still a country full of assets and there is plenty of investors in the world who want it.

Zionist billionaire George Soros spoke earlier this week about Europe being on the verge of collapse. I think Germany will ultimately decide whether the eurozone survives or not.

The fact is Germany's interest in this situation is at odds with the United States of America. The economic weakness in Greece, Ireland, Portugal and Spain make the euro weak and this boosts Germany's export economy. Greece's problem can be solved if Germany leaves the Eurozone and brings back the (yes, I'm saying it) Deutschmark which would immediately trade up 30-40% on world markets to enhance its competitiveness. This action would save Greece.

Germany could use this situation to its advantage and establish the fourth Reich. After the German media propagates these tremendous advantages to the masses, I will garantee you that this scenario will play out.

Good luck Germany with your economic superpower status. I hope you learn from the mistakes of the American and Russian empires.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Helsworth - 29.06.2011 11:57

Commissar Wrote:
The IMF is claiming that only austerity measures will save Greece. But I say that this is a lie. Greece is in the pocket of international banking interests and needs a regime change.

The example of Iceland informs us that when an economy collapses, it can be rebuilt from scratch, so to speak. That means evicting the IMF, ECB and the EU.

Greece should leave the Eurozone and return to the drachma. European banks own Greek debt so they would be losers. But Wall Street banksters own even more Greek debt because they insured the European banks. Greece needs to default on their debt and Wall Street would be the biggest loser. Greece has 111 tons of gold so they could have a fresh start by monetizing their new currency. Greece would still be able to attract major investment with their world class drachma. Greece should follow the Iceland example.

Argentina is another good example of a country that defaulted and bounced back. Nations shouldn't worry about attracting foreign capital just because they defaulted. It's still a country full of assets and there is plenty of investors in the world who want it.

Zionist billionaire George Soros spoke earlier this week about Europe being on the verge of collapse. I think Germany will ultimately decide whether the eurozone survives or not.

The fact is Germany's interest in this situation is at odds with the United States of America. The economic weakness in Greece, Ireland, Portugal and Spain make the euro weak and this boosts Germany's export economy. Greece's problem can be solved if Germany leaves the Eurozone and brings back the (yes, I'm saying it) Deutschmark which would immediately trade up 30-40% on world markets to enhance its competitiveness. This action would save Greece.

Germany could use this situation to its advantage and establish the fourth Reich. After the German media propagates these tremendous advantages to the masses, I will garantee you that this scenario will play out.

Good luck Germany with your economic superpower status. I hope you learn from the mistakes of the American and Russian empires.

Now everyone will jump up and call you and I nazis, because we don't like Inter Alpha Group and its EU slaves.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Globaltom - 29.06.2011 13:48

Fourth Reich , Nazis, Eu slaves Grind

WTH are you talking here ???


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - DRLHyper - 29.06.2011 19:18

Commissar Wrote:
Argentina is another good example of a country that defaulted and bounced back. Nations shouldn't worry about attracting foreign capital just because they defaulted. It's still a country full of assets and there is plenty of investors in the world who want it.

Very, very true Commissar Jaja .

I dare add, however, that it is not due to our foolish President (whom did not want to default on the debts, but pay them back), but thanks to our Senado.

The Senado guys have been the only ones with brilliant ideas so far. Cool


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Helsworth - 29.06.2011 20:05

The parasites are affraid of bankruptcy reorganization, because defaulting means judicial auditing and that means digging and bringing up dark and unpleasant secrets. Lets see what the "official" conclusion of the new ECB's bank stress test will be...


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Commissar - 30.06.2011 17:02

Greece just signed a 5 year austerity plan today. They are basically in default but do not want to admit it. Their debt is already 150% of its annual GDP, and I don't see how they will get out of this situation through austerity. I see the situation in Greece getting worse.

Britain is now undergoing massive strikes from teachers and civil servants regarding pensions. But, in my view, a one day strike usually means government savings. The workers will need a prolonged strike for better leverage or else the government will have control of the situation.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Globaltom - 30.06.2011 17:21

Commissar Wrote:
Britain is now undergoing massive strikes from teachers and civil servants regarding pensions. But, in my view, a one day strike usually means government savings. The workers will need a prolonged strike for better leverage or else the government will have control of the situation.


teachers and servants ? Aren t they state employers
with no strike right ?


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Helsworth - 30.06.2011 17:30

Globaltom Wrote:

Commissar Wrote:
Britain is now undergoing massive strikes from teachers and civil servants regarding pensions. But, in my view, a one day strike usually means government savings. The workers will need a prolonged strike for better leverage or else the government will have control of the situation.


teachers and servants ? Aren t they state employers
with no strike right ?

They have their own associations and do have the right to strike. Such jobs aren't like banking or entertainment service jobs. In my country the state employees of the finance ministery and the justice department employees went on strke. The former complaining about bonuses they didn't recieve and the latter because of low wages and lack of funds with which to buy the basic necessities of their job, such as paper and printing ink.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Globaltom - 30.06.2011 17:46

Helsworth Wrote:

Globaltom Wrote:

Commissar Wrote:
Britain is now undergoing massive strikes from teachers and civil servants regarding pensions. But, in my view, a one day strike usually means government savings. The workers will need a prolonged strike for better leverage or else the government will have control of the situation.


teachers and servants ? Aren t they state employers
with no strike right ?

They have their own associations and do have the right to strike. Such jobs aren't like banking or entertainment service jobs. In my country the state employees of the finance ministery and the justice department employees went on strke. The former complaining about bonuses they didn't recieve and the latter because of low wages and lack of funds with which to buy the basic necessities of their job, such as paper and printing ink.

Ok well as i know in Germany state servants changed the striking
right for an firing save. They have their jobs till pension,
but can not strike Kopfkratz


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - rivere123 - 30.06.2011 20:24

Personally, no. In six months it would end with nobody's benefit. If Germany leaves the Eurozone, inflation and speculation would mess up the Euro, and the already tightrope economic situation would worsen, which would hurt trade/manufacturing giants like Germany especially.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Triniteras - 01.07.2011 09:49

Of course Germany shouldn't leave the Euro Zone, they should take it over with their corporations. All the other corporations fail because they are robber barons filled with incompetent clods. That is the true meaning of sustained liberalism.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Globaltom - 01.07.2011 14:36

Triniteras Wrote:
Of course Germany shouldn't leave the Euro Zone, they should take it over with their corporations. All the other corporations fail because they are robber barons filled with incompetent clods. That is the true meaning of sustained liberalism.


Are you shure you know what you are talking about ?


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Helsworth - 26.11.2012 17:52

Angela Merkel 'profoundly disturbed' after poll shows over half of Germans believe they would be better off without euro (30 July 2012)


Survey comes as expectations grow that Germany will have to play big role in bailing out Greece and Spain.
It also shows 71 per cent of Germans think Greece should leave euro if it fails to carry out austerity plan.

Angela Merkel was last night said to be ‘profoundly disturbed’ after a poll showed that a majority of Germans want to ditch the struggling euro.
Sources in Berlin said the German chancellor was shocked by the evidence of growing Euroscepticism in her country, at a time when Germany is under huge pressure to bankroll a rescue of the single currency.
The poll in a German newspaper found that 51 per cent of Germans think the country should return to the deutschmark.
It is the first poll to show that more want to leave the euro than stay in it.
Only 29 per cent thought Germany would be better off staying inside the 17-strong eurozone.
The survey also found that 71 per cent of Germans now believe Greece should be booted out of the single currency unless it acts on promises to tackle its huge debts.
Mrs Merkel’s spokesman said she was ‘profoundly disturbed’ by the poll results.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2181127/Angela-Merkel-profoundly-disturbed-poll-shows-half-Germans-believe-better-euro.html

PS: Reminds me of a particular guy who stated a while back on this thread that the only Germans who want a return to their own sovereign currency, the deutschmark, were nazis and revisionists.

Globaltom Wrote:
Never, only Nazis and other revisionists want the DM back.

So much bullshit from him then and now.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Globaltom - 26.11.2012 17:58

Helsworth Wrote:

Globaltom Wrote:
Never, only Nazis and other revisionists want the DM back.

So much bullshit from him then and now.

Stop that mobbing !
Enjoy that you can still inheritance Motz


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - owhansson - 26.11.2012 22:55

No, Germany actually has a very stable position with the Euro. It also has given Germany a ton of inter-European political power, as well as a strong mercantilistic advantage on the global markets.

On the other hand, the Eurozone-framework cannot survive without the monetary authority (ECB) backing up the states. At the moment, that is greyzone-legal and is begin done behind the scenes, but is not really favouring anyone. I think the most favourable option for the Eurozone countries would be to have a central fiscal authority to take care of inter-European employment and investment policy, so as to keep markets stable. There's only so much monetary policy can do. We're already at the end of that road. Fiscal policy is left, but the states are limited by the framework and semi-consciously trying to kill their own economies with unnecessary austerity to reach some imaginary (and unreachable) goal.

I think the lesson is that the state cannot exist in a financial vacuum separate from the rest of the economy. Instead, it needs to understand the effects of spending/taxation on the economy as a whole and form policy according to that. IMF is saying this too now, but they're stuck in the "fiscal-cliff" imaginary world.

Some other countries should leave the Eurozone, mostly to regain fiscal freedom and escape that austerity.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Crossover - 05.12.2012 00:22

If one bases his answer purely on the gains and losses of each decision (leave or stay) then i believe the answer is stay.Germany has been pursuing export led growth all these years and the eurozone helped big time such a beggar - thy-neighbor policy.Using the same currency with Germany,enabled German products to gradually become competitive in the eurozone periphery economies which would otherwise wouldnt have happened due to exchange rates fluctuating accordingly.
The following graph is no coincidence:

This would have been impossible with the DM.

In the case that Germany returns to the DM and decides to keep up with its weak domestic demand policies the DM will appreciate a lot,causing german exports to become expensive.This will lead to unemployment and probably recession.

With that being said,one cant possibly believe that if Germany stays in the euro zone all its problems are solved.Being heavily dependant on exports makes the policies that it enforces on the periphery conflict with its export interests.Demand destruction in the periphery due to austerity measures causes less demand for German exports.This is already starting to become visible.Eurozone is getting into a recession and the German economy has already shown signs of stagnation.

So for me the best choice is for Germany to stay, but at the same time change the policies it is trying to enforce on the rest of the eurozone.Germany is shooting its own feet right now and they dont even seem to realise it...


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Nietzsche - 10.12.2012 22:45

Commissar Wrote:
Germany could use this situation to its advantage and establish the fourth Reich. After the German media propagates these tremendous advantages to the masses, I will garantee you that this scenario will play out.


No.

***


Not pointing fingers, just posting this:
x - year
y - interest rate on government bonds



If someone got deluded by the benefits of the Euro and who actually benefited from it - it was everyone, obviously. According to interest rates on government bonds, we're back to pre-Euro almost exactly. Everyone felt too safe there and now it's time to pay for that...

Personally I think Germany gained a lot from the Euro and thus its fine if it pays now, but with system... it's ponderous to look for the ones responsible to blame or punish them, Europe has to see to that it can remain united.

Politics will become more interesting in Germany from now on, the enemy of Angela Merkel, Peer Steinbrück (a social-democrat economist) was officially declared candidate for the opposition yesterday. Guess during election campaign we will see what the mundane opinion of Germans towards Europe really is, as always.

By the way, I have to agree with what Globaltom said, although his way of formulating it was wrong. A lot of Germans want the Deutsche Mark (not Deutschmark, to be correct) back, but those are not all 'Nazis'... what a inflationary used word.
No, those are simply your average "in former times, everything was better (I think)" persons you get everywhere, no matter country or whatever.

Also, many people are sick of the news being full of Europe and less looking at national problems. That's bad of course, but also understandable. The opposition of the current government will put national social affairs on top priority and will try to win with that. Also, Germans are probably afraid of gaining an official leading position in the Euro-Crisis (at least the bulk of people) because we're getting called Nazis and Fourth Reich all the time, which even pisses me off greatly, although I accept and enforce Germany's responsibility in Europe.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Helsworth - 11.12.2012 00:49

Nietzsche Wrote:

Commissar Wrote:
Germany could use this situation to its advantage and establish the fourth Reich. After the German media propagates these tremendous advantages to the masses, I will garantee you that this scenario will play out.


No.

One more line of proof from the myriad of other ones, in which Commissar shows his idealization of Hitler and for the tenants of national socialism. The man's not trolling, or playing a joke - he actually means it. Which is more than I can say for Triniteras, though, his absence is very queer.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Crossover - 11.12.2012 02:04

@Nietzsche

Comparing the interest rates on gvt bonds during the pre-euro period and after the adoption of the euro is incorrect.Governments able to issue their own currency can never default on their debt denominated in such currency ie. the interest rate is irrelevant.Furthermore gvt bond interest rates follow the interest rate that the central bank sets on the interbank market rate.The interbank rate is the anchor for the rest of interest rates that exist in the economy.



In other words, first it is normal for Greece having 25% interest rate on bonds when the interest rate in the economy is also around 25% and at the same time the level of that interest rate is irrelevant because its no burden for a gvt issuing its own currency.Its better to issue a 25% bond in your own currency than a 3% bond in a foreign currency.And the euro is exactly that for each eurozone member: a foreign currency.Since no member is allowed to issue euros at will.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Titian - 11.12.2012 02:19

Let's be realistic:

If the central bank is independent, i.e. if the government has no active influence over monetary policy whatsoever, it doesn' matter for the economy what currency is used in the long term.
Yes, exports greatly boost the GDP (depending on the saving ratio and the propensity to import) but what does the aggregated economy actually gain from a massive trade surplus?
If we assume that this balance never becomes negative and none of the surpluses are invested abroad, German workers essentially work for free for oreign consumers in real terms.
If the surpluses are spend on imports at a later point, there will be a long-run-average-trade-equilibrium (not taking inflationary effects into account).
If the surpluses are invested into stone-hard-currency (i.e. into real-economic assets such as shares or property and not just claims to foreign debtors such as financially-risky governments) both sides win (the imported goods have a greater value to the foreign consumer than their assets and those assets have a greater value to german exporters than these goods).

Now, what if Germany had its own floating currency? These effects would all cancel out, because after a period of great trade surpluses, imports would become so cheap due to a uranium-hard currency, that living costs decrease massively. Yes, jobs may be lost, but they might be recovered after the currency depreciated enough after a period of great trade deficits.

Without government interference it doesn't matter how many currencies there are. You could as well have only one global currency - this would lead to significant savings on exchange fees.

If there is government intervention on monetary policy...
well, just as always: government influence messes everything up and only benefits one specific group at the cost of all the others.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Crossover - 11.12.2012 02:44

@Titian

Although i agree with your opinion about German workers effectively working for consumers abroad, just like the Chinese (MMT after all which i advocate considers net exports as a loss) i dont agree with your opinion that " it doesn' matter for the economy what currency is used in the long term.".
It does.First of all it is important that under a fiat currency, the government that issues it is unable (unless it chooses to do so) to default on debt denominated in the said currency.Since it can issue it then it can never run out of it.This actually means that the gvt is able to stimulate the economy with deficit spending whenever needed without worrying about debt.
A trade deficit is a drain of financial assets for the domestic economy and if its not "covered" by an equivalent net injection of financial assets it can lead in the long term to recession.In the short term it can be covered through credit borrowing by the private sector but there will come a point where the prv sector will have to deleverage and thats when you will get a recession if the gvt. doesnt step in.

If you recall the post i made about Greece from a sectoral balances point of view this becomes evident.The private sector increased its debt during the early to mid 00s and when it had to deleverage (and thus decrease consumption and investment effectively causing a demand leakage for the economy) it was impossible for the gvt to step in because it cant issue euros thus it has to compete in the open market against individuals and businesses to obtain euros through loans.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Titian - 11.12.2012 03:18

well, let me say that i am somewhat working on a new economic/political system and it might be that i am a bit lost in that work and have subsequently lost touch to reality (great minds cannot afford to waste their time on something as insignificant as reality - me; yes, I am quite arrogant and self-centered Hehe)

Ok, back to topic...
What happens if the government in control of monetary policy uses inflation as a tool of obtaining real economic value? In the traditional systems existent up to this point, the inflaitonary effect through the increase of the monetary base woul obviously be even enforced through the bank multiplier, even though I believe that you have posted some criticism about it (I hadn't had time lately to read long posts Sad)
Through the use of inflation the government is thus able to obtain more real value from its economy than it would usually be the case if it only used taxation. If we consider a closed economy in my opinion it does make no (moral) difference whether the government extracts purchasing power from its economy through taxation or inflation or a combination of the two. In the end the economy, i.e. the citizens will have to cover the expenses of the state by transferring parts of their own purchasing power.
Let's consider Zimbabwe; Zimbabwe is famous for its hyperinflation and the resulting pauperization of its population. The same effects would have been the result from a massive increase of taxation whilst the monetary policy remained independent from the government (assuming once again a closed economy and assuming that all financial liabilities in RL were to account for changing inflation rates).

You stated that the government can stimulate the economy with deficit spending without worrying about debt. Well, remember that the limit of all expenditure is real production. If the global production of cakes is pegged at 10'000'000'000'000'000'000'000 somebody can simply not eat more than 10'000'000'000'000'000'000'000 cakes no matter how much money he is willing and able to pay for them and without dying because of massively extreme obiesity before he came to the last one.
If the government were to cover all of its expenditure through inflation, this simply means that all the individuals contained within the economy, including the government's creditors, are expropriated.
In the extreme case this means that the government could indeed generate full employment by unimaginably high hyper inflation but this would also mean that at least most if not all of the economy's output would flow into government expenditure, seriously limiting the aggregated total utility the economy can provide.

Now, what happens if we open the economy and the same inflationary policy is being adopted? Foreign creditors of the state and other debtors within that economy are essentially expropriated (at least partly).

Regarding your worries about recession:
Personally I do not like the deintion of recession.
Let us assume that a nation's economy is completely based on the export of christmas trees. It has no other output and therefore has to import all of its other needs and wants from abroad. Let us also assume that there is a sheer infinite, perfectly inelastic demand for christmas trees and a sheer ininite global supply of all the goods that nation has to import. The entire workforce is employed in the production on christmas trees and all the citizens go shopping at the other side of the border. Let us also assume that there is no substitute use for christmas trees.
Well, obviously this economy will only receive payments in december, during the rest of the year the economy's output falls to 0 and therefore the economy enters by definition a devastating recession every year. Question: are the people really poor?
No, they are not if we consider that they receive infinite amounts of monetary units during one month with which they can purchase infinite amounts of goods. They can set up budgets which will last them an entire year.
So, is recession, if we consider that no skills or other production capital is lost if it is not being used, really a bad thing? What if an economy is producing enough output during 10 years to last it another 10 years without any economic activity after which production is presumed?

Of course I too share the assumption that more goods and less bads are better and in fact I am designing my new model so that the economy is allways operating at its production boundary (with the exception of those who wish to abstain from productive activity such as pensioniers). But I doubt that the definition of a recession is justifiable, especially when we take external influences such as the climate (e.g. there might be a great harves for 3 years after which 3 years of drought follow; then the cycle is repeated) into account.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Crossover - 11.12.2012 03:52

Titian Wrote:
Ok, back to topic...
What happens if the government in control of monetary policy uses inflation as a tool of obtaining real economic value? In the traditional systems existent up to this point, the inflaitonary effect through the increase of the monetary base woul obviously be even enforced through the bank multiplier, even though I believe that you have posted some criticism about it (I hadn't had time lately to read long posts Sad)

i dont agree that an increase in the monetary base can lead to inflation.Especially not by definition.we can get back to this though when you have the time to read my objection that you rightly noticed i have already made.



Quote:
You stated that the government can stimulate the economy with deficit spending without worrying about debt. Well, remember that the limit of all expenditure is real production.

Ofcourse.And theres no point for a government to deficit spend more than needed as implied by the economy's maximum productive capacity.At times of recession though the economy is always below full capacity thus an appropriate budget deficit is needed.

Quote:
If the global production of cakes is pegged at 10'000'000'000'000'000'000'000 somebody can simply not eat more than 10'000'000'000'000'000'000'000 cakes no matter how much money he is willing and able to pay for them and without dying because of massively extreme obiesity before he came to the last one.

Again those 100000000000000...00000 cakes is the economies maximum capacity.When the economy has reached full employment it is stupid for the government to either increase or decrease its spending.

Quote:
If the government were to cover all of its expenditure through inflation, this simply means that all the individuals contained within the economy, including the government's creditors, are expropriated.
In the extreme case this means that the government could indeed generate full employment by unimaginably high hyper inflation but this would also mean that at least most if not all of the economy's output would flow into government expenditure, seriously limiting the aggregated total utility the economy can provide.

Full employment is when all available resources are put to work and produce output.This means that there will be economies where everybody will be employed and economies where not everybody will be employed.obviously spending beyond full employment is inflationary but i never implied that a gvt should spend beyond full employment.would a larger budget deficit by the greek gvt cause inflation in the Greek economy right now? (hint: the output gap in the Greek economy is at 12-14%)

Quote:
Regarding your worries about recession:
Personally I do not like the deintion of recession.
Let us assume that a nation's economy is completely based on the export of christmas trees. It has no other output and therefore has to import all of its other needs and wants from abroad. Let us also assume that there is a sheer infinite, perfectly inelastic demand for christmas trees and a sheer ininite global supply of all the goods that nation has to import. The entire workforce is employed in the production on christmas trees and all the citizens go shopping at the other side of the border. Let us also assume that there is no substitute use for christmas trees.
Well, obviously this economy will only receive payments in december, during the rest of the year the economy's output falls to 0 and therefore the economy enters by definition a devastating recession every year. Question: are the people really poor?
No, they are not if we consider that they receive infinite amounts of monetary units during one month with which they can purchase infinite amounts of goods. They can set up budgets which will last them an entire year.

Well the statistics would imply a recession on a month to month basis but on a yearly basis even the statistics wont indigate recession.Furthermore, seasonally adjusted stats would already account for the difference of output produced in december compared to the rest of the year.so seasonally adjusted stats would show the real truth that is no recession at all.

Quote:
So, is recession, if we consider that no skills or other production capital is lost if it is not being used, really a bad thing? What if an economy is producing enough output during 10 years to last it another 10 years without any economic activity after which production is presumed?

How does an economy produce more output than it uses?
Output = C + G + I + NX
In other words all output is bought by someone either via private consumtpion,or by the gvt via gvt purchases or by investment or by net exports.
On the other hand Output = C + S + T.This is because national income is also equal to output, and all individual income either goes to pay for consumption ©, to pay taxes (T), or becomes savings (S).
I cant really understand how producing "enough output during 10 years to last another 10 years" translates into similar terms so its pretty confusing.Let alone im not sure if this hypothetical example provides anything other than a theoretical discussion since im not aware of a single real life example where this happens.

Quote:
But I doubt that the definition of a recession is justifiable, especially when we take external influences such as the climate (e.g. there might be a great harves for 3 years after which 3 years of drought follow; then the cycle is repeated) into account.

A recession is a recession no matter what.Climate is a factor able to affect growth.with that said i dont know why a recession due to climate should be considered as different from a recession due to war or a recession due to an earthquake.

Edit: Now that i think of it, i believe you can divide recession into 2 major types just like there are 2 major types of inflation.
You can have recession that comes from demand destruction (as is the case in eurozone) and you can have recession due to destruction of productive capacity.they are 2 distinct types that require different measures to tackle.
Just like demand pull inflation is different from cost push inflation and requires different measures.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Nietzsche - 11.12.2012 10:57

I like to look at "reality" as you called it here - or at least try to. Since this is all about politics or it at least takes a huge impact right now, it's important what happens there. And a good politician will rally the masses in some way to get elected.

Keep in mind that the formula you are comparing are very complicated (well, not the ones here, but in general - economy is complicated) and I am by no means saying stop, but know that most people will either not have the time or the capacity (may that be time again, or mental power, or just having enough in their heads) to comprehend those theories. Hell, even experts sometimes fail at that.

Where I am aiming at - what will the people be rallied for? For Germany, Commissar expected they could be rallied for the Fourth Reich. Let me tell you this: If anyone would use that word here in the media it would be over. He'd have to immigrate to America. (I'm saying this because many people who fail here go there, I'd probably do the same.)
No but the core of what Comm said isn't wrong... the deep core... people can be rallied. And finally reaching my conclusion: People in Germany are still afraid of inflation.

I don't even know why, really. And inflation has been lowest in Germany during the Euro years, it was at a healthy 2% or below, it has been way higher before. Many people believe Inflation is the ultimate evil and the Euro will produce it (actually, that's what the ECB is trying to do, but can't get to it somehow) and only the DM (Deutsche Mark) can stop that!
A little history: From the first year the Euro was introduced in Germany (Starter packs wohoo!) it was called "Teuro" (it's a German confusion of the words "expensive" and "Euro") by many, also highly adapted by the media. That's quite ironic, isn't it?

That's why I pointed out the new elections here before. That might matter. See that most people don't even understand a VERY STRONG currency in comparison to all others can be a problem for e.g. exports.
It will be the same in Greece, Spain, GB, France - the base of citizens does not understand all this, and that explains to me why they are getting so angry from times to times. Sadly, as some economist in Germany said a while ago: Economic theory (and especially the math in it) does not need to become simpler. It has to become much more complex yet.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Crossover - 11.12.2012 11:14

Quote:
Keep in mind that the formula you are comparing are very complicated (well, not the ones here, but in general - economy is complicated) and I am by no means saying stop, but know that most people will either not have the time or the capacity (may that be time again, or mental power, or just having enough in their heads) to comprehend those theories. Hell, even experts sometimes fail at that.

Yes this makes perfect sense.With that said though, keep in mind that i didnt post formulas but identities.the main difference is that identities stand by definition.
And if the "stand by definition" explanation still isnt enough for some, it only takes an attempt to consider where does the gdp comes from or where is it used at ?
Not accepting the identities means that you believe that gdp derives from more sources than the ones presented or that it has more uses than those presented in the identity.
Its simple accounting so it cant be wrong though.Its like counting how many cars enter from one side of a tunnel and how many exit from the other side.You cant have more entering than exiting or vice versa (assuming that cars dont stay inside Tongue )

Quote:
And finally reaching my conclusion: People in Germany are still afraid of inflation.

I don't even know why, really. And inflation has been lowest in Germany during the Euro years, it was at a healthy 2% or below, it has been way higher before. Many people believe Inflation is the ultimate evil and the Euro will produce it (actually, that's what the ECB is trying to do, but can't get to it somehow) and only the DM (Deutsche Mark) can stop that!

I believe theres more than 1 factors causing avg. Germans to be so afraid of inflation and see it behind every policy.
To name some:
1)The Weimar experience combined with the fact that nobody explains why Weimar was different.
2)Possible deception of the general populace based on certain interests.
3)The influence of Austrian economics in the German political economic thinking.
Those are the 3 major factors imho.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Helsworth - 11.12.2012 12:26

Watch this documentary by lpac. It's one of the better ones, and it's about WW1 and the Weimar Republic's situation. How the german government was forced to sign its own death sentence. And it's about PHYSICAL ECONOMY! Play it from 0:05:00



RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Nietzsche - 11.12.2012 16:27

Speaking of more physical things, let's not forget the German government pushed through a few big reforms that were not really liked by the population during the past ten years (under a red-green government, btw. *cough cough*) which HAS a HUGE impact on why Germany is so well off now.
Take Spain, for example. Youth unemployment there has always been high. And it has a reason which can by no means only come from outside causes.

Growth was encouraged greatly in Southern Europe when the Euro was introduced, while growth in Germany and Western Europe in general remained somewhat the same. Thus saying Germany is the only winner in all this is wrong, and plainly throwing dirt.


As there was a lot of dirt thrown on other countries, and there is yet more to come. That's human nature, someone always has to be responsible, and the people LOVE it if you can name small groups of people, or even single offenders.
The problem is, there is no single reason for the current crisis. It has been called various names for a reason, some event(s) might have started it, but simply revealed the weaknesses of different systems...


Maybe Germany should play a bigger role, but at least in common sense here no one wants that. It's commonly believed Europe is only one thing anymore: Expensive. It's resembled in a record popularity for Merkel and her party, when all they did was... waiting... watching... and waiting again.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Helsworth - 11.12.2012 16:46

If people truly want to speak of austerity - look at Romania. Here it really was/is CRIMINAL. The theft, the looting, the leakage, the worthless bureaucracies; they even managed to suck the blood dry from Hidroelectrica, a company that turned a lots of profits. The politicians and business clientele managed to skim everything, especially the health care system. While Petrom announced record profits, when the country was moving backwards, and when the global economy faced itself with mud in the face. Cartelization, corruption, theft, and increased taxes. Romania doesn't have a differentiated VAT for basic goods (foods), it's 24% across the board. The excise is calculated in euros - so add here the ever increasing lower parity between the lion and the euro. Great work romanians, take it more up the ass - you know you can. Daumenhoch


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Nietzsche - 11.12.2012 16:52

And I hear you're going to join the big Euro-Party in 2014/15. Daumenhoch


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Crossover - 11.12.2012 18:06

Nietzsche Wrote:
Speaking of more physical things, let's not forget the German government pushed through a few big reforms that were not really liked by the population during the past ten years (under a red-green government, btw. *cough cough*) which HAS a HUGE impact on why Germany is so well off now.

Thats the biggest contradiction ive noticed for Germany.Germans (rightfully so) didnt like the reforms they went through since the entrance in the eurozone yet they brag about the trade surplus which was made possible exactly due to these reforms.Allow me to object though, i dont consider living off exports as being "so well off".Once those who you are exporting to, go down, you go down with them.And Germany enjoyed export growth in the eurozone after the euro was realised and is already showing signs of "going down".

Quote:
Growth was encouraged greatly in Southern Europe when the Euro was introduced, while growth in Germany and Western Europe in general remained somewhat the same. Thus saying Germany is the only winner in all this is wrong, and plainly throwing dirt.

Growth was bubble like in the periphery for a combination of reasons.Namely: Germany's weak domestic demand forced investments (a great part of which was proven unproductive) in the periphery in search for higher yields, the ECB's one size fits all monetary policy was too loose for the periphery and as has been claimed was more appropriate for the core than the periphery


Quote:
The problem is, there is no single reason for the current crisis. It has been called various names for a reason, some event(s) might have started it, but simply revealed the weaknesses of different systems...

I believe the reason has a name .In my opinion its called "bad design of the eurozone".If you ask me, under the current way the eurozone is structured (and by structured im mainly talking about the policies such as the maastricht treaty) no country should have ever choosen to join, in order to protect its own interests.Unfortunately, returning to our old currencies is not exactly the opposite of what we did 10 years ago and left our currencies and joined the euro.

Quote:
Maybe Germany should play a bigger role, but at least in common sense here no one wants that. It's commonly believed Europe is only one thing anymore: Expensive. It's resembled in a record popularity for Merkel and her party, when all they did was... waiting... watching... and waiting again.

Thats because Merkel never dared explaining to the people what it would mean for Germany to let the eurozone crash.She similarly never explained that the EFSF and ESM guarantees are bailing out banks and not countries.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Helsworth - 11.12.2012 18:37

Crossover Wrote:
Thats because Merkel never dared explaining to the people what it would mean for Germany to let the eurozone crash.She similarly never explained that the EFSF and ESM guarantees are bailing out banks and not countries.

Exactly. One of the other reasons, from the many others for which I dislike Merkel with a passion, is her stance on nuclear energy - and she's a physics professor for god's sake. There's a big difference from advocating responsible use of nuclear energy, and radiophobia shout-platforms. Fukushima was the product of gross negligence, corruption, dealings with organized crime by the energy company, and government regulation leeway. I'm all in favor of closing down old reactors, but they need to be replaced with new, 4th generation reactors, which are much more productive, efficient, and safe. Molten salt reactors, gas cooled reactors, and breeder reactors are the way to go. Nuclear fission has so much untapped potential, and through technological advances, future designs are going to be able to utilize more of the splitting reaction's emanation of power.

The energy released in the fission of a single uranium atom is 200 million electron volts, making the simple advantage of uranium fission over combustion of natural gas about 20 million to 1. However, the figure does not include the surface area over which the work occurs. In comparing nuclear to chemical reactions, we must consider the ratio of the surface area of the nucleus (about 10-2cm2) to that of amolecule (about 10-15cm2for methane). Thus an additional factor of 10 to 9 (1 billion) must be factored in, bringing the potential energy flux density advantage of nuclear fission over fossil fuel burning to approximately 20 quadrillion to 1. This advantage is what governments should stride for, via their financing of research institutes and projects.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Nietzsche - 12.12.2012 17:14

Crossover Wrote:

Nietzsche Wrote:
Speaking of more physical things, let's not forget the German government pushed through a few big reforms that were not really liked by the population during the past ten years (under a red-green government, btw. *cough cough*) which HAS a HUGE impact on why Germany is so well off now.

Thats the biggest contradiction ive noticed for Germany.Germans (rightfully so) didnt like the reforms they went through since the entrance in the eurozone yet they brag about the trade surplus which was made possible exactly due to these reforms.Allow me to object though, i dont consider living off exports as being "so well off".Once those who you are exporting to, go down, you go down with them.And Germany enjoyed export growth in the eurozone after the euro was realised and is already showing signs of "going down".


Those reforms were not completely aimed at the EU, they were aimed at making the country ready to globalization, which from today's point of view looks like a success.
In Spain for example youth unemployment has always been high and is even higher now, because their employment policy is kind of strict and favors 'old' before 'young'... even more easily spoken, a company in Spain will have a hell lot more effort to take to get rid of some employee than in Germany.

And that sounds harsh for Germans employees at first... but in the long run encourages given new people a chance. It's only a small part of the reforms.


There is criticism of the reforms though. It was mainly a reduction of the welfare-state, something quite unusual for the party which pushed it through. I have spoken to Danish businessmen not long ago and they called Germany a "low-wage country" in comparison to Denmark.
That was the aim of those reforms as well, I think. It further encourages exports, but the loans inside Germany didn't rise adequately.
Some say that was unfair towards other EU countries.


Helsworth Wrote:

Crossover Wrote:
Thats because Merkel never dared explaining to the people what it would mean for Germany to let the eurozone crash.She similarly never explained that the EFSF and ESM guarantees are bailing out banks and not countries.

Exactly. One of the other reasons, from the many others for which I dislike Merkel with a passion, is her stance on nuclear energy - and she's a physics professor for god's sake. There's a big difference from advocating responsible use of nuclear energy, and radiophobia shout-platforms. Fukushima was the product of gross negligence, corruption, dealings with organized crime by the energy company, and government regulation leeway. I'm all in favor of closing down old reactors, but they need to be replaced with new, 4th generation reactors, which are much more productive, efficient, and safe. Molten salt reactors, gas cooled reactors, and breeder reactors are the way to go. Nuclear fission has so much untapped potential, and through technological advances, future designs are going to be able to utilize more of the splitting reaction's emanation of power.

The energy released in the fission of a single uranium atom is 200 million electron volts, making the simple advantage of uranium fission over combustion of natural gas about 20 million to 1. However, the figure does not include the surface area over which the work occurs. In comparing nuclear to chemical reactions, we must consider the ratio of the surface area of the nucleus (about 10-2cm2) to that of amolecule (about 10-15cm2for methane). Thus an additional factor of 10 to 9 (1 billion) must be factored in, bringing the potential energy flux density advantage of nuclear fission over fossil fuel burning to approximately 20 quadrillion to 1. This advantage is what governments should stride for, via their financing of research institutes and projects.


I disagree, a country like Germany should get away from nuclear fission, because it has the technology and funds for that. But it should not enforce that path upon others... after all, the countries using nuclear fission will mainly have to deal with the negative consequences themselves.

And it's not only operating the stuff, it is also cleaning up the used nuclear material.


When it comes to CO2-emission vs. nuclear power plants, please, by all means, build a power plant. But in Germany we are not failing at the means to produce a lot of energy e.g. via wind, because it lacks technology or funds, but rather because people are reluctant to having new power grids build through their precious gardens.
A little more strictness would be nice there, yet again, a political thing. Keep in mind Germany is currently ruled by a coalition of two parties, and one of those parties is so impotent it has fallen below the share of voice level which would be needed to actually get into our parliament. It's that party which has blocked Germany from taking a stance for the global environment at the recent climate summit, combined with stupid citizens.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Helsworth - 12.12.2012 17:48

Up to 96% of spent fuel can be recycled into new fuel and other elements required for the manufacturing industry and medicine.
From a physical standpoint, nuclear energy is the cheapest form there is. The reason why it's not, is POLITICAL. A man with all the capital in the world couldn't enter the nuclear market in the US and propose thorium as the solution. Of which the US has the biggest known reserves in the world. The nuclear engineering sector is deliberately kept uncompetitive, sluggish, and elitist, while protecting the establishment's archaic technological designs. Instead of giving all that bailout money to the banks, it should have been given to the construction of 4th generation reactors. The real progress and anti-inflation key to economical development is technology. Increase productivity, increase efficiency, lower costs, and that translates into lower prices and higher wages/profits - for both housesholds and business, for public infrastructure as well as education and health care.

Please read this article by John McClaughry.

Suppose—just suppose—that there were a tested energy technology out there that

• produces electricity cheaper than coal, because of lower capital and fuel costs,
• uses a fuel that is in almost inexhaustible supply, both in the U.S. and elsewhere,
• operates continuously, in baseload or peaking mode, for up to 30 years,
• operates at an efficient high temperature but at atmospheric pressure,
• can be factory-built and deployed in compact 100-megawatt modules close to the end use of the power,
• contributes nothing to air or water pollution and needs no water for operation,
• safely consumes long-lived transuranic waste products from current nuclear fission reactors,
• produces high-temperature process heat that can make hydrogen fuel for vehicles, and
• is walkaway safe.

Science journalist Richard Martin's book SuperFuel makes the case that such a technology exists. It's thorium, and particularly the LFTR—the liquid fluoride thorium reactor.

All 104 units of the U.S. reactor fleet, plus all of its naval nuclear fleet, are comprised of light water reactors using low-enriched uranium. (Around 4 percent of the uranium fuel is the fissionable U235.) These reactors transfer the fission heat of nuclear fuel into water and then high-pressure steam, which eventually turns turbines that turn generators that produce electricity.

These conventional reactors have gotten larger over the years—up to 1,700 megawatts—to attain capital cost efficiency. They generate power inside large steel and concrete containment vessels to contain any accidents. There are several other varieties of nuclear reactors: high temperature gas cooled (China's HTR-10, Germany's THTR), heavy water and natural uranium (Canada's CANDU), graphite moderated bomb factories (Chernobyl), and the fast breeder (Russia's BR600, France's Superphenix).

In the 1960s, Oak Ridge National Laboratory pioneered the idea of the thorium reactor. If you bombard the plentiful and slightly radioactive heavy metal thorium 232 with neutrons, you convert it to fissionable uranium 233. Instead of water, the LFTR circulates the thorium tetrafluoride fuel through the reactor core dissolved in molten lithium and beryllium fluoride salts. A small amount of U235—or later, U233—supplies the neutrons that cause fission. Excess neutrons fly off into a surrounding blanket of molten thorium salt to convert more thorium into new U233 fuel, which can then be used to keep the reaction going. Because the molten salt expands when heated, it is inherently safe: The lower density fuel won't support a continuing nuclear reaction.

Every stage of this process—fuel loading, neutron management, fuel separation, heat exchange, refueling, and waste separation—has been successfully tested in actual reactors, although not in an optimum commercial-scale configuration.

So why aren't we doing it? To answer that, Martin details the long battle between the demanding and acerbic Admiral Hyman Rickover, who wanted nuclear engines based on known technology right now to propel his fleet of submarines, and the gentle visionary Alvin Weinberg, longtime director of Oak Ridge National Laboratory, who envisioned a fleet of safe and affordable thorium-powered electric plants. Rickover, a savage bureaucratic infighter, got what he wanted, and Weinberg got fired. The industry put its muscle behind the hugely expensive liquid metal fast breeder reactor. It in turn was shelved in 1984 after Congress spent $8 billion on the Clinch River Breeder without turning a shovelful of dirt.

As Martin puts it, "Light water reactors and their younger cousin, the liquid metal breeder, won out because of technological intransigence rooted in the military origins of the U.S. nuclear program."

From 1965 to 1969, Weinberg's molten salt reactor experiment had operated successfully, in the later months with thorium-derived U233 fuel. By 1973, Weinberg was gone, molten salt was rejected, and thorium was dead. Rickover's uranium-based industrial empire was preserved, as Westinghouse and other companies built the admiral's naval reactors; the cheaper, safer alternative was shelved.

A man with all the capital in the world couldn't crack into the U.S. nuclear power market: Since it involves uranium, the government stands adamantly in the way, arm in arm with the interests committed to defeating any challenge from disruptive technology. (Nuclear Regulatory Commission approval of a new reactor type typically takes up to 10 years.) That's why Martin believes the LFTR or a variant is more likely to be developed and eventually marketed by China, Russia, India, France, Canada, or even the Czech Republic, all of which are actively pursuing the idea.

Is the LFTR just another fantasy? Weinberg's R&D program solved the major technical problems over 40 years ago. There are several unsolved but not insuperable issues: getting the neutron-eating lithium 6 out of the lithium salt, separating certain fission product salts from the molten salt carrier, and managing small amounts of gaseous tritium. And of course, it will take a lot of engineering to put all the pieces together into one efficient, factory-built 100 Mw modular plant sized to supply, say, Terre Haute, Indiana. It remains to be seen how hard it will be to get such a plant insured, but LFTRs are inherently far safer than light water reactors. If one obtains a Nuclear Regulatory Commission license as a certification of safety, insurers ought to accept it—but there will terrific pressure from the established industry to drag out that certification for as long as possible.

Martin's book is a good read, but when he proposes the steps he thinks are needed to bring his "superfuel" into widespread use, he just comes up with more industrial policy. He wants the government that snuffed out thorium and molten salt reactors four decades ago to subsidize them back into existence, perhaps (one might conjecture) making use of the now vacant Solyndra factory. Maybe the government ought to just get out of the way? If thorium is the Next Big Energy Thing, let its advocates prove it—as soon as Washington stops protecting anachronistic technologies and the companies that sell them, and lets new ideas and talent bring us into a brighter energy future.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Nietzsche - 12.12.2012 20:24

I'm not saying stop all research into that direction, but it would be unwise to quit researching better solar energy / wind energy systems as well. Although thorium is expected to be three times as common as uranium, it is still unlasting.

Producing out energy by forces that are lasting, like the sun (if we could catch less than 1% of the energy it was sending to earth we'd have all we need MORE than covered) or wind. Other countries use water and thermal energy, but not ever country has that chance.


Also, there is research going on for an even better thing: Nuclear fusion. But it is difficult to get running for a long time. Europe wants to have their experimental reactor running 30 continued minutes by 2050, but then, they get some 1 billion a year, which could be increased if scientists would be able to give waterproof evidence that hot fusion can work. The sun is doing just that. The problem is, we don't have that much pressure, so we need A LOT more heat. Big Grin


Interesting stuff btw, even if people don't believe in it. The core of such reactors is called "Stellarator", it's worth a read. Amazing technology, took years to calculate how the magnetic fields had to be assembled.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Crossover - 12.12.2012 20:43

Nietzsche Wrote:
Those reforms were not completely aimed at the EU, they were aimed at making the country ready to globalization, which from today's point of view looks like a success.

Im not really sure where you see the success.The main idea of the reforms was to achieve export led growth through weakened domestic demand.While its easy to grow through exports when everybody else is booming and increasing consumption, there is no way to grow through exports when everybody is cutting his spending.And thats exactly whats happening now.If you think the reforms were a success because Germany managed to stay out of trouble then you are mistaken.Germany is not in real trouble YET.Just watch how Germany will get into trouble when recession in the eurozone really kicks in.As long as the gvt is reluctant to increase spending in such a recessionary international environment,then its a given that Germany will get into trouble to.Thats the price you have to pay for basing your growth on exports.The only thing that the reforms managed to do is make sure that Germany will be among the last to be harmed by the crisis.Other than that i see no success.

Quote:
In Spain for example youth unemployment has always been high and is even higher now, because their employment policy is kind of strict and favors 'old' before 'young'... even more easily spoken, a company in Spain will have a hell lot more effort to take to get rid of some employee than in Germany.

I dont think we should be in favor of policies that either promote old before young or young before old.It is obvious why old before young is wrong.But young before old is equally wrong.An old person that is close to retirement will have a hard time finding a new job if he gets fired, and thus will have a hard time to complete the required years to be able to get a full pension.Thats equally fucked up in my opinion.The point is to promote employment in general, not fuck up a part of the population in favor of another.



Quote:
That was the aim of those reforms as well, I think. It further encourages exports, but the loans inside Germany didn't rise adequately.
Some say that was unfair towards other EU countries.

Its called beggar-thy-neighbor policy.Germany managed to grow only because others didnt enforce the same reforms.Thats exactly why i dont understand how can you criticise other nations for not following your steps.First of all it is against your very own targets, and second German politicians give me the idea that they believe that somehow it is possible that we all (the eurozone members) can grow by exporting to the rest of the world.Though you must be really dumb to believe that.Eurozone is one of the biggest economies in the world and one of the biggest sources of demand as well.It is hard to see what market would be big enough to absorb sufficient net exports from all over the eurozone.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Nietzsche - 12.12.2012 21:30

It was necessary because Germany was losing its relative competitiveness and it is competitive now, faring better than the rest, which is, naturally, what the government of a country tries to achieve.

However the current situation which was maybe not foreseen as it should have been, calls for different behavior, I agree. What you say is correct, a sustainable growth in Germany can not be build by following the way of exporting as it does now, and that might have been overdone. That's why I said before I am highly for strengthening the other countries and in favor of the EU.

I do however also examine that many Germans are not, which is sad and unhealthy, but as long as the government and the media doesn't explain all that to people, it will not change... but hopefully that will happen soon.


If I sounded too defensive, that was not my ambition. I do however no like all the talk about "they had planned that all along." That's just plain stupid to say. (And wasn't by anyone here, but is a common theme in other countries.)

Currently it is impossible to forecast whether there will be a change of government in the coming elections. Meaning, whether Merkel will remain in her position or not. Should a change of government come I expect the things proposed by you above to happen (at least to some extend), but I might be biased there for political reasons. Wink


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Helsworth - 12.12.2012 22:52

Wind and sun have a low fixed energy flux density. No matter how much better solar panels get, they won't be able to obtain more than what the Earth's atmosphere allows. These types of energy sources are hugely dependent on the whims of nature. And I don't see value of wasting precious metals and other rare elements into deserts, when we should be greening them, to provide more land for settling, farming, developing. Also, nuclear water desalination can't be matched by solar or wind. I'm also an avid supporter of hydroelectric dams and geothermal plants. Matter-antimatter reactors are also awesome. It's like Star Trek Big Grin
In my opinion, the funding for nuclear research - including fusion - is a joke. Banks get much more subsidization than such projects. As for fusion, it's been around for a very long time. The problem is, that they haven't found a way in which to make fusion power commercially viable, because it costs more to get the reaction going, than its output. Superheating plasma in a magnetic bottle costs a lot. Laser fusion is interesting, and it still uses fission pellets. Through our current technology level, our reach of harnessing nuclear fission is just a small fraction of the wonder that is the "splitting of the atom." I'm all in favor of fusion technology, but there are some, like Rolf A. F. Witzsche, who advocates for the non-entropic universe. And argues that entropic models of the world and universe are hoaxes, and that the established view on fusion is based on the same entropic fallacy, which is the second law of thermodynamics. In Witzsche's words, "That law is based on two critically dangerous axiomatic errors - 1. that the Universe and man is a closed system, and 2. that everything is subject to entropy by which the Universe is perceived as winding down towards a 'zero-energy' state. While this does not accord with the consensus in today's 'science' of astrophysics, it does accord however with the overwhelming evidence that the Universe itself is providing of itself. According to this evidence the Universe is not a closed system, but is "unbounded" as Einstein had put it, and is not winding down towards an entropic energy death, but is self-powering and expanding in all aspects, quantitatively and qualitatively."
You can check out the man's writings here. It's easy to read. And here are a few excerpts:

The fusion-power paradox

Nuclear-fusion power is based on the assumption that all aspects of the universe are basically closed system, such as our solar system which is deemed to exist isolated in space, and being powered by a self-consuming process by -- a fusion furnace operating inside the Sun, which is consuming its fuel and is thereby winding down towards an eventual heat-death and self-extinction. The very foundation of the fusion-powered Sun is an axiomatic error that is apparently intentionally built on the concept of entropy as a means for tying science into knots. It is a part of the Big Bang theory of the Universe, according to which the Universe was born and gained all of its energy in a giant explosion without having had a prior existence, and which is from the moment of its birth winding down and dissipating. The Big Bang theory was conjured up in the workshops of empire, evidently along the policy line of forcing the devolution of science as pioneered Paoplo Sarpi in an effort to save the existence of the system of empire, and as later carried forward by H.G. Wells and the Fabian society, though Wells felt the Fabiens were not radical enough in that direction. The Big Bang theory came out of this background, originating from the Royal Society. It emerged roughly coincidentally with the dawn of the unfolding evidence of the electric cosmology and its promise for infinite energy resources for mankind. (see: The Electric Universe ) The fusion-powered sun is an element of the Big Bang theory where everything is gravity bound and self-isolated, where the only ruling force is gravity, the weakest force in the Universe. In order to render this entropic concept to be acceptable, the concept of the fusion-powered Sun was invented, similar to the epicycles that astronomers like Ptolemy conjured up to make the visible evidence fit the axioms of an imposed theory.

Entropy is presently the mainstay of the existence of empire, forcing the devolution of everything that society depends on, including science, culture, economics, finance, politics, and so on. The fusion-Sun came out this background, but there exits no evidence for it. When the process that creates sunspots tears out a chunk of the photosphere, they layer below is darker (colder) not brighter as it should be if the Sun was heated from the inside. This is just one of many aspects of evidence that counter the fusion-Sun theory, which however is vehemently protected. The evidence is however consistent in every respect with electric cosmology that recognizes a surface heated Sun, powered in an electric arc-mode by the plasma-electric currents that pervade and power the Universe. Thus we have two models before us, an entropic model of a closed solar-system that defines a self-consuming fusion-powered Sun, and an anti-entropic model of an open solar-system that exists as a part of the Universe is powered by the power streams that power the Universe as a whole, every galaxy, and every star and sun within it.

Since according to all evidence that defines the anti-entropic model as real, the Universe has no need of a fusion-powered Sun, and of fusion power itself, so that a principle for the fusion-power concept does not really exist in the Universe. In fact, evidence for the opposite exits, of natural principles than inhibit fusion-powered energy production as protective measure against run-away fusion. Every fusion ignition that mankind has produced has blown itself out, from the hydrogen bomb to the reactor contained fusion. The general experience in nuclear-fusion development has been that we are running headlong against a natural principle that inhibits the process. The harder we push the process, the greater the problems become that loom before us. Indeed, why would the Universe have created a principle that reflects entropy, which runs contrary against its every nature that is anti-entropic?

If we stand back from the axioms that support nuclear fusion, we invariably ask ourselves the same question, who needs it? We don't have any need for it. We have vast energy resources for thorium fission power laying unused at our feet, with the same useful energy content (per ton) that the fusion fuel would offer. Why would we bother then with nuclear fusion? In fact by tying ourselves into knots over this issue, we blind ourselves to the infinite galactic energy resources that we have within our reach. With electric power-flows on the galactic scale, who needs nuclear fusion? (see: Absolute Power )

There exists no evidence for nuclear-fusion power being produced anywhere in the Universe, so why would we bother? Evidently our doing so is the intention of those forces who have a sinister self-interest in keeping mankind small, impotent, tied into knots, and thereby self-defeating. These are the processes of empire, entropic processes.


Here's nuclear fusion occurring naturally in nature (sonoluminescence), in no conditions of UBER pressure and UBER temperatures.



RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - americccpan - 13.12.2012 05:29

no, put solar panels in space.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Nietzsche - 13.12.2012 05:30

Uh-hu yeah, the the thing is, sunspots are not holes in the sun like this deluded gentlemen (Witzsche) is proposing, but still layers of gas which are simply colder than the rest. They are colder, because bursting hot gas from inside the hotter core of the sun comes out and hinders conviction, the maximum energy output of the "normal" outer temperature makes it just visible as we see it the "glowing orb", the maximum energy output of the sunspots, since colder, makes them look darker.

I wouldn't have had to write this though - if that guy believes a solar object with the maximum temperature of 6000 °C can emit the energy we can measure on earth, he's simply deluding his readers.


On the video: That phenomenon is indeed not yet fully understood and proofed. However there is more evidence against it being nuclear-fusion than for it. And yes, there is no global conspiracy of all physicians and other scientists working on such things to make us believe the Universe isn't working as it is.
You can't say 'look here, this might be nuclear-fusion, thus there is no nuclear fusion in any star in the universe.'



If you don't believe me, please look up evidence of heavy elements being produced on earth. Such as Thorium. Thorium was not created on earth. It was created by a much bigger star which has been there before our sun (also a star) and all our planets, which collapsed into a nova (since we have really heavy materia around), which created all the heavy elements by nuclear fusion, bursting it into a cloud of hot gas, which, by means of gravity came together upon getting colder, forming the new sun of lighter materials and planets of heavier ones, good for us.

Big stars die in a huge explosion (ours won't), because there's a balance of forces, sort of, with gravity (indeed the weakest force) holding it together. When the reaction in a star becomes endothermic (one would have to add energy to let the reaction go on), because too much of the lighter elements have fused into heavier ones, gravity gains the upper hand, pressing it together more, thus heating up the core, which makes the elements fuse even faster.
It is in these dieing moments of a star (and the very last moments of it, which are also of cosmic scape, but very short at that) that very heavy elements in our element table are created under high pressure and temperature - those elements then form up a new star and planets, eventually.

That is not only proven (well, there can never be any total proof, of course), it is logical and goes with the rest of tech we got (if the Universe wasn't working as we believe it is on major matters, some of our calculations wouldn't work either, but they do) - as well as it is beautiful on a philosophical level that dieing creates new life.

So basically, if you deny there's nuclear fusion going on in stars, you're denying the best and most logical explanation for our very existence, and we can continue blaming god for that. Wink



Again, I am not saying thorium as a nuclear-fission fuel isn't good or working. It does work, there have been reactors (and probably still are). That does however not mean we have to discard one of the basic principles of the Universe just like that, a thing proven and visible to anyone, at least more proven than the stuff that guy wrote.

Would anyone be interested if I wrote a short summary of the currently used (note: not with metaphysical certainty correct ^^) theory of the Universe and the origin of matter? I find this very interesting, but bringing together all the facts with good sources will take a while and I don't want to do it if nobody gives a crap, like Titian with his idea of writing a summary for the basic economic theories.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Helsworth - 13.12.2012 09:42

The guy's saying that how fusion is traditionally thought is wrong, because the guy rejects entropy. So he offers a different, more elegant theory in his opinion, of how stars work - so he proposes the "Plasma sun/The Electric Sun Hypothesis".
You've misunderstood him on the issue of "holes". When he says this, he's talking about, "The violent process of a strong prominence exploding into space, ends up 'ripping' a hole into the photosphere where the electric-arc heating of the Sun normally takes place. The eruptions leave behind holes in the photosphere that are termed, sunspots. The sunspots remain until the double layer and the photosphere become re-established.The sunspots are our typical indicators of extreme solar actions, and are therefore an indication of the intensity of the solar activity. The massive solar flares that leave 'giant' sunspots in their wake, have a positive effect on the Earth in that they add to the effect that deflects to some degree the ever-present cosmic radiation that the Earth is nevertheless bombarded with. With fewer sunspots occurring (less solar activity), the climate on the Earth gets colder, because increased cosmic radiation intensifies the cloud formation process as an effect of increasing water vapor ionization in the Earth's troposphere."
You can read about his theory of The Electric Universe: http://www.christian-science-csd.info/lovescapenovels/electric_universe.html

The Electric Climate
http://www.christian-science-csd.info/lovescapenovels/electric_climate.html

The Electric Sun Hypothesis
http://electric-cosmos.org/sun.htm

The Electric Sky, Donald E. Scott, Ph.D
http://electric-cosmos.org/indexOLD.htm

I wouldn't be quick to dismiss him as deluded, if I were you - not until I've read all the man's arguments and his proposed solutions to economic/political issues via his astro-physical theory. I personally don't believe in The Big Bang Theory, and I had this mind set for years. I never seen a black hole, neither did I explore the inside of a star, nor have I witnessed the beginning of creation itself. My philosophy in life is to question everything, especially conventional wisdom, and those people who think of themselves as knowing everything and possessing all the answers. I hope you're aware of the Climate Gate Scandal, I hope you're aware that what we truly know about the universe is actually pretty close to next to nothing. We don't even know much about our own world, yet the establishment has tried time and time again to force its arbitrarily dogmas and models against the masses, while punishing those who had different ideas, and proposed different theories. Descartes was a major fraud, yet he's still highly regarded today. Why? Thus, I've made a habit of listening and following people with conflicting view points in order to corroborate and form my own opinions. That's why I watch both Paul Krugman and Max Keiser, RT and AFP, austrian economic thoughts vs interventionist thought and so forth.
His conclusion in that last paper is this:

This rather lengthy page has actually been the briefest of introductions to Juergens' Electric Sun model - the realization that our Sun functions electrically - that it is a huge electrically charged, relatively quiescent, sphere of ionized gas that supports an electric plasma arc discharge on its surface and is probably powered by subtle currents that move throughout the now well known tenuous plasma that fills our galaxy (Helsworth: the majority of the universe's mass is in plasma state, about 99,9% if I recall correctly). A more detailed description of the ES hypothesis as well as the deficiencies of the standard solar fusion model are presented in The Electric Sky.
Today's orthodox thermonuclear model fails to explain many observed solar phenomena. The Electric Sun model is inherently predictive of most if not all these observed phenomena. It is relatively simple. It is self-consistent. And it does not require the existence of mysterious entities such as the unseen solar 'dynamo' genie that lurks somewhere beneath the surface of the fusion model and serves as a fall-back explanation for all observations that are inconvenient for the accepted fusion model.

Ralph Juergens had the genius to develop the Electric Sun model back in the 1970's. He based it on the work of others who went before him. His hypothesis, and modern extensions of it have so far passed the harsh tests of observed reality. This seminal work may eventually get the recognition it deserves. Or, of course, others may try to claim it, or parts of it, and hope the world forgets who came up with these ideas first.

There is now enough inescapable evidence that a majority of the phenomena we observe on the Sun are fundamentally electrical in nature. Ralph Juergens had the vision to recognize that.


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Nietzsche - 13.12.2012 11:25

I'll look into it, but you are completely ignoring several points, and I don't see how those theories would cover them: The source of matter, for one. Where does it come from, if not from inside the stars?

On plasma: 99,9% of the viewable matter in the universe consists of plasma, the important word is viewable. Plasma consists of ions and electrons.

Expansion of the Universe / red shift


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Helsworth - 13.12.2012 11:48

To quote Terry Pratchett, "In the beginning there was nothing, and it exploded."

Nobody is saying that the Sun did not create the solar system. Rolf A. F. Witzsche simply rejects entropy, and as such rejects the tenants of fusion - death after the fuel has been burnt - The guy identifies "holes" in the established theory, and tries to provide his own alternative by specifying from whom he obtained the alternative, such as Ralph Juergens. Nothing wrong with that. I know a few theoretical physicists who are adepts of explaining the universe via mechanical principles, and not through "forces magically created by mathematics." Need I remind you that string theory only works, because the math of it has arbitrarily created 10 to 12 dimensions to get itself to yield mathematical results. You don't believe in the fairy tale of monopoles do you? So why call Witzsche deluded? Especially since the guy's a writer and researcher, not a doctor. Wink


RE: Should Germany leave the Euro Zone? - Nietzsche - 13.12.2012 12:42

You actually got me, I began searching for this stuff in German (for easier understanding, since the content as such is complicated enough) and there are some interesting views and also imprecisions in the common theories.
Right now exploring the Doppler-effect / tired light theories, but I am still wondering how they'll explain the origin of mass. Will take some time to get a big picture.

I was probably too fast calling him deluded. What made me jump to that were the references of holding back mankind and imperial theories... seeing a conspiracy theory here is not necessary, as well as directly linking it to politics, there is enough scientific evidence to attack the common theories to get started with.
Should the Universe not expand but the redshift be produced by magnetic fields and diffusion of light, there would be no direct impact on how mankind has evolved right away, for example.