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Progressives can't see the real enemy is Clinton, not Trump

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Helsworth
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Post: #1
Progressives can't see the real enemy is Clinton, not Trump

Washington Post Runs 16 Anti-Bernie Stories In 16 Hours


How Hillary's Campaign Manipulates The Press


Hillary Clinton's HUGE Demographics Problem


Does Bernie's Win in Michigan Change Things?


Barack Obama Isn't Interested In Change Anymore


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This post was last modified: 09.03.2016 11:09 by Helsworth.

09.03.2016 11:03
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Ajay Alcos
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Post: #2
RE: Progressives can't see the real enemy is Clinton, not Trump

Also worth mentioning is the Daily Beast (which admittedly I used to read frequently), the bias in that magazine for Hilary against Bernie disgusts me.

09.03.2016 14:30
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Helsworth
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Post: #3
RE: Progressives can't see the real enemy is Clinton, not Trump

Ajay Alcos Wrote:
Also worth mentioning is the Daily Beast (which admittedly I used to read frequently), the bias in that magazine for Hilary against Bernie disgusts me.

I've taken note of that, as well.


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This post was last modified: 09.03.2016 14:52 by Helsworth.

09.03.2016 14:52
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Jaiddin
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Post: #4
RE: Progressives can't see the real enemy is Clinton, not Trump

Your headline provoked me to read and reply, because while it is very true to say that Hillary is a corporatist and nominating her will have the result of two corporate parties (which has been a problem in the USA starting with her husband, but she would be the most corporate-owned Democrat nominated in the modern era even compared to her husband)...it goes too far to say she's worse than Trump.

That's true even though Trump is only the second worst on the Republican side. Ted Cruz is the biggest danger there. The lesser Republican evil is the one who doesn't know much of what he wants (Trump) than the one (Cruz) who knows he wants to make lots of people into "wage slaves" (as in "work for low wages or starve") to enrich the aristocracy further.

I have no love for Hillary, and I've even had arguments where I've argued that while Trump is very bad he's not as awful as a lot of people think he is, and that Cruz is clearly worse. I could even understand liberals casting protest votes for minor candidates rather than voting for Hillary or Trump. I don't plan to do that because that thinking gave us W in 2000, but I wouldn't try to talk someone out of it (if Cruz is the GOP nominee, I actually will try to talk people out of that, however). I can certainly understand if someone thinks the Dem establishment will keep shoving corporatists down our throats if liberals dutifully vote for them.

But Hillary is not a bigger enemy of liberal values than Trump. To call Trump a fascist overstates things, but he certainly has a scary degree of fascist tendencies; and Trump is also a loose cannon and makes promises it's impossible to keep-- every time he says "Ill be the best president at X in history" I want to ask him "Please explain how?" (though Cruz is somewhat of a loose cannon himself, as I like to point out).

10.03.2016 11:58
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Helsworth
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Post: #5
RE: Progressives can't see the real enemy is Clinton, not Trump

Jaiddin Wrote:
it goes too far to say she's worse than Trump.

I wasn't making that statement at all. If it came down to Sanders vs Trump, Sanders wins. The danger of having another corporate neoliberal president in power is Hillary, not Trump. Trump is going to be a neoconservative. So I simply cannot understand progressives who are giving their votes to a fraud (Hillary), when they can vote for Sanders - who IS electable & who IS beating Trump (at least in the polls I've seen from TYT) and who also stands better odds against Cruz, than Hillary does.


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This post was last modified: 10.03.2016 12:45 by Helsworth.

10.03.2016 12:43
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Jaiddin
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Post: #6
RE: Progressives can't see the real enemy is Clinton, not Trump

Helsworth Wrote:

Jaiddin Wrote:
it goes too far to say she's worse than Trump.

I wasn't making that statement at all. If it came down to Sanders vs Trump, Sanders wins. The danger of having another corporate neoliberal president in power is Hillary, not Trump. Trump is going to be a neoconservative. So I simply cannot understand progressives who are giving their votes to a fraud (Hillary), when they can vote for Sanders - who IS electable & who IS beating Trump (at least in the polls I've seen from TYT) and who also stands better odds against Cruz, than Hillary does.


With your explanation, I think I can agree. It's more or less that you're saying that the only way NOT to have another corporate neoliberal president is to defeat Hillary in the primaries, because if it's Hillary vs. any Republican candidate, we get a corporatist either way. I agree, my state votes next Tuesday, and Sanders has my vote.

You're also correct that while it's not well known (the media has some blame here but Sanders, while he speaks of it, should speak of it more), Sanders does considerably better against Trump or Cruz in polling than Hillary does.

10.03.2016 13:36
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masterpierround
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Post: #7
RE: Progressives can't see the real enemy is Clinton, not Trump

Helsworth Wrote:

Jaiddin Wrote:
it goes too far to say she's worse than Trump.

I wasn't making that statement at all. If it came down to Sanders vs Trump, Sanders wins. The danger of having another corporate neoliberal president in power is Hillary, not Trump. Trump is going to be a neoconservative. So I simply cannot understand progressives who are giving their votes to a fraud (Hillary), when they can vote for Sanders - who IS electable & who IS beating Trump (at least in the polls I've seen from TYT) and who also stands better odds against Cruz, than Hillary does.


First off, I am from Michigan, voted for the first time, and am very proud of my state's Democratic Primary voters. While I agree with everything you said, it should be noted that TYT has a pro-Sanders bias. I'm not saying they lie to make Sanders look good, but they will present every pro-Bernie fact they can find, and very few pro-Clinton facts. You can argue that their bias is unimportant because the rest of the media is so biased towards Hillary, but then you'd be making the same argument FOX 'News' makes.

11.03.2016 00:45
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Kakatiya
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Post: #8
RE: Progressives can't see the real enemy is Clinton, not Trump

Helsworth Wrote:
I wasn't making that statement at all. If it came down to Sanders vs Trump, Sanders wins. The danger of having another corporate neoliberal president in power is Hillary, not Trump. Trump is going to be a neoconservative.


What exactly is the difference between a neoliberal and a neoconservative when it comes to economic policy?

11.03.2016 01:34
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Helsworth
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Post: #9
RE: Progressives can't see the real enemy is Clinton, not Trump

@masterpierround
Yes, I am aware of that. I consider Sanders to be the lesser evil, anyway.

@Kakatiya
In essence, they're the same thing.
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2008/11/n...-face.html


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11.03.2016 10:55
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Jaiddin
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Post: #10
RE: Progressives can't see the real enemy is Clinton, not Trump

Helsworth Wrote:
@Kakatiya
In essence, they're the same thing.


Actually, I view them as referring to different areas.

My way of looking at it:

Neoliberal refers to a set of domestic policies, basically left-leaning on things that don't cost money (so more friendly to minority rights than conservatives, accepting science on things like evolution and global warming), but center-right on economics, protecting corporations and the like (center-right though rather than hard right like Cruz on economics, believing in some semblance of a safety net, which someone like Cruz opposes; but the Republicans used to be the center-right party and from the Democrats I'd like something left of center).

Neoconservative is much more a foreign policy term, of go-it-alone hawkishness, believing that the USA can succeed in forcing its will on the world. Pre-W, the USA followed a realist rather than neocon foreign policy, seeking to maximize our influence but using diplomacy when possible and being judicious about when to use force (and considering world opinion, if only out of recognition that we're better off when we have allies).

Obama has been mostly a pro-corporate neoliberal domestically, though less of one than Hillary will be, but returned the nation to a realist foreign policy. True lefties (I'm not one, I'm center-left; but in today's American politics that puts me to the left of most Democrats economically, partially because most Dems want to keep the donor class satisfied) don't even like foreign policy realists, because we (I'm in with the realists) still want to maximize American influence, but just realize that alienating the world is a bad strategy for doing that; and we'd also rather not sacrifice blood and treasure needlessly in wars. True lefties would have us voluntarily give up influence.

Hillary's Iraq war support and other positions suggest she is more of a foreign policy neocon rather than a realist, certainly more so than Obama, probably less so than W, but less so than W isn't saying much.

11.03.2016 11:39
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