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Reform the influence bar!!!

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Helsworth
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Post: #1
Reform the influence bar!!!

Ok, guys, here's my beef. It was easy to implement reforms using the Reform Propaganda button back when the action points spent on options did not progressively increase the cost of said options.
Now, however, it's a complete nightmare. People will say, use regimen, speech, and foreign visit. But these options marginally improve your influence on their own, and plus, you don't know how your popularity is going to fare tomorrow, when these actions do take effect. Currently, it's virtually impossible to implement a low cost reform such as negative income tax or flat tax for a player who uses no authoritarian options in his task decisions. I mean, look at this... it's outrageous Tongue My regent is so popular, yet my influence power is only 2,52. Yet my regent has popular support (approval rating) of 71,33%.


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This post was last modified: 30.03.2015 11:56 by Helsworth.

29.03.2015 23:23
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MrProper
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Post: #2
RE: Reform the influence bar!!!

I do not agree. After all, your influence will also increase over time based on the duration of your regency. It is no problem to implement the low tier reforms after 10 to 50 quarters if your manage your state well.


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29.03.2015 23:43
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Helsworth
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Post: #3
RE: Reform the influence bar!!!

MrProper Wrote:
I do not agree. After all, your influence will also increase over time based on the duration of your regency. It is no problem to implement the low tier reforms after 10 to 50 quarters if your manage your state well.

So is it more realistic to implement dramatic reforms (without the aid of reform propaganda) when the regent is old as hell? In the real world, governments with 51% approval rating manage to reform the tax-code and the health care system. Ok? Governments with just 51% power - be it in the polls or majority backing in parliament. You know what my popularity is in the polls? It's 71,33%. Higher than Franklin Roosevelt. A government with such popular support in real life would be able to do a hell of a lot more, not just Laicism and Bureaucratic reform. The formula for the influence bar is dramatically way off in its realism - if anything, it's a simulation of unrealism.


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This post was last modified: 30.03.2015 12:00 by Helsworth.

30.03.2015 11:51
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MrProper
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Post: #4
RE: Reform the influence bar!!!

Helsworth Wrote:
So is it more realistic to implement dramatic reforms (without the aid of reform propaganda) when the regent is old as hell? In the real world, governments with 51% approval rating manage to reform the tax-code and the health care system. Ok? Governments with just 51% power - be it in the polls or majority backing in parliament.


Influence, in my eyes, is more a measure for political power in total, based on support in your own political party, connections to the economy and the political establishment (both national and international). Consider the fact that your are extremely young at the begin of your career - 30 years and already president. High approval ratings do not mean you are a proven leader, just that the population is supporting your actions.

Coming back to the "old men" you were referring to led a country for many, many years. He was re-elected many times and surely found ways to ensure his influence, friends in many places and supporters in most leading positions of the government. (By what ever means; piking suitable candidates, making laws in favor of particular groups ...). After such a long time, he is no longer an unproven green boy - he is the state.

Helsworth Wrote:
You know what my popularity is in the polls? It's 71,33%. Higher than Franklin Roosevelt. A government with such popular support in real life would be able to do a hell of a lot more, not just Laicism and Bureaucratic reform.


In my opinion, that is a poor comparison. (I am really sorry, no offense intended) Also usually you don't judge a president / leader of a country by his approval ratings, rather by his (or hers) achievements. Approval means, that people are pleased by your actions so far, but that does not mean they would support any reform you would like to implement.

Look for example at the newly elected Greek government. They are also very popular among the people (According to this article 72% for the prime minister), but are they also considered to be influential? I assume most oligarchs and the old political establishment would disagree.

Another example: Have a look at Bushs approval ratings.

Based on your argumentation, Bush would have been able to crown himself as king, to introduce planned economy and turning the USA into a Theocracy. Approval is also something that is very dependent on unpredictable circumstances and your way of dealing with them. Hence, I am pretty sure Bush would never had such a bump in his popularity without 9/11.

Coming back to Ars Regendi: I think the way how states have been modeled assumes that you came to power without drastic "election promises". After all, everyone starts his/her regency in a pretty young age in a (more or less) democratic state in which people are mostly content with the current situation & political system. I can understand why many people would like to implement high tier reforms early on, but a model can not fully reflect reality. Instead, Ars Regendi provides you with the means to slowly transform your state to your liking (no matter if you want to be a dictator, socialistic ruler or whatever), postponing fundamental reforms to a stage where you successfully cemented your rule.


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This post was last modified: 30.03.2015 18:27 by MrProper.

30.03.2015 18:21
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Helsworth
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Post: #5
RE: Reform the influence bar!!!

You are entirely misrepresenting my posts. Approval rating of a particular head of state or candidate means the public's faith in him as a leader/politician and for his platform (for what he stands for: welfare reform, bank reform, pro-cuts, pro-spending, environment, regulation, deregulation etc).
Everyone knows that while in power, a president or PM's image erodes. The longer you stay in power, the more people hate you - just take a look at autocratic regimes. Second, Bush's approval rating spiked after 9/11 because of his hawkish stance at home and abroad - his platform was popular. He would not have been able to introduce Planned Economy or Friegeld or crown himself king - on this point you're simply arguing a straw man.

I did not say that I wished to enact high-end reforms such as those that require 9, 8, or 7 influence - but very mild reforms such as income tax. Your old wise man vs unproven green boy is not relevant to the matter at hand. De Gaulle was old and wise but in the end, his platform was no longer popular (approval ratings) and so he stepped down. The idea is that the longer a person stays in power, the less popular that person becomes - it's true for leaders as well as entire parties (the same gravy politicians). The fact that your influences rises over time the more you stay in power in Ars-Regendi is just contradicting history and empirical reality. New administrations usher in reforms, NOT old ones. Once again, given my high popularity rating and the fact that I do not choose authoritarian task options, this DOES NOT allow me to introduce small tier reforms such as MR 1, Pension reform, or Negative income tax.

And no, my comparison with FDR is not "poor". FDR's heritage had nothing to do with labor (the sons of bankers rarely do) - yet his political platform had everything to do with it. FDR represented the New Deal and his approval rating depended on FDR + New Deal platform. The Greek government to which you refer that it has high popularity does not mean that it has high popularity or simple popularity for that matter to anything outside their platform. More than 70% of greeks are against leaving the euro, and that percentage is about the same in support for Syriza. Ergo, Syriza pledged that they will not leave the eurozone.

Instead of resorting to sophistry to find excuses for keeping a broken influence formula, I'd rather have a more or less arbitrary response from the devs relating to gameplay mechanics or something of the sort.


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30.03.2015 19:22
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Richard Wilson
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Post: #6
RE: Reform the influence bar!!!

I agree with Helsworth, the reform influence rating is unrealistic.

30.03.2015 20:51
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Rising Phoenix
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Post: #7
RE: Reform the influence bar!!!

I believe the method used to determine the value is to blame. Power should in my view represent autocratic authority, which is in turn determined by other factors: Popularity, military support & spending, pervasion of police forces, etc. Currently it seems randomly determined by secret files and task options.

The Influence value is also too dependent on the Power value, and while it is true that an unpopular Regent with high military authority could pass unpopular reforms (i.e.: Latin America right-wing dictatorship cases), the opposite is also true: A popular regent could use his traction with the populace to get support for popular reforms, even if his office is almost symbolic authority-wise.

I also think the influence bar should be updated.

31.03.2015 00:44
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MrProper
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Post: #8
RE: Reform the influence bar!!!

Helsworth Wrote:
You are entirely misrepresenting my posts.

After reading your third post, I realized that my whole post could easly be interpreted as an offense. I am realy sorry, that was not my intension. The actual purpose was to constructively critize your suggestion based on my understanding of your argumentation. However, as a none native speaker, it could be that I am indeed misinterpreting what you are trying to say. Again: sorry for that.

Helsworth Wrote:
Approval rating of a particular head of state or candidate means the public's faith in him as a leader/politician and for his platform (for what he stands for: welfare reform, bank reform, pro-cuts, pro-spending, environment, regulation, deregulation etc). [...] on this point you're simply arguing a straw man.

To be honest, I had to look up the straw man phrase. In order to not repeat my previous mistake, I will instead to refer to Ars Regendi directly. As we know, this indeed seems to be what AR is doing: approval reflects public's faith (or more or less happiness) based on past decissions. Initially prone to variations, later on more stable as you build up a history of solved tasks.

Helsworth Wrote:
And no, my comparison with FDR is not "poor".

Sorry. I think I meant to say "flawed", not poor. However, it does seem to make it less offensive ...

Helsworth Wrote:
Instead of resorting to sophistry to find excuses for keeping a broken influence formula, I'd rather have a more or less arbitrary response from the devs relating to gameplay mechanics or something of the sort.

I am not a dev, but given the definition of how influence is determined it does seem broken to me: "Influence determines the volume of budget changes and which reforms can be introduced. It rises automatically with reign duration and also depends on international reputation, regent's health, popularity and power." (Source - Sheep). Given that Malone claimed that the intension is to be able to play a state for more than 60 (in game) years (Source in nasty German), Influence being supposed to be growing over time and required influence being based on how likely it is that the specific reform could be implemented in a western democracy (both stated here by Malone), this seems to be way it was meant to be.

Hence, I agree that the way influence is modeled comes at the cost of realism, but on the other hand it seems to me that the initial limitation of player actions is compensated by game play that becomes more rewarding over time. (Which seems to be the original intention)


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This post was last modified: 31.03.2015 19:02 by MrProper.

31.03.2015 19:02
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Helsworth
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Post: #9
RE: Reform the influence bar!!!

Thank you, MrPropper; I'm glad we've straightened it out. I apologize if I came on a little bit too strong.


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31.03.2015 20:54
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Lord Weasel
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Post: #10
RE: Reform the influence bar!!!

I have to agree with helsworth, a leader with a high approval rating irl is capable of sweeping reforms, even if they do not act on that popularity.

01.04.2015 01:33
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