Poll: Should Germany grant Edward Snowden asylum?
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Should Germany grant Edward Snowden asylum?

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Malone
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Post: #1
Should Germany grant Edward Snowden asylum?

According to my poll on Facebook:

Especcially the Pirates Party demands, that Germany should grant Edward Snowden asylum. Do you think, they are right?


Politischer Test Test site from Ars Regendi for the evaluation and comparison of political alignments

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02.07.2013 23:15
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Panther23
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Post: #2
RE: Should Germany grant Edward Snowden asylum?

They should, but our government is an embarrassing discrace. So they won't.

03.07.2013 11:38
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StatlerNWaldorf
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Post: #3
RE: Should Germany grant Edward Snowden asylum?

Your question is too vaguely worded.

You could mean any number of things by that question.

You could, for example, mean, "Should Germany risk severing economic and political ties to the strongest economy on the planet for the sake of a cheap political stunt?"

Or, you might mean,

"Should Germany take insight from it's past experience with the Stasi to take a bold stand in favor of the fundamental right to privacy and against totalitarianism, not just domestically but on the world stage?"

Or, you perhaps mean,

"Should any member state of the EU risk alienating the power most capable and willing to bail it out in case the economic crisis present within the Union turns out to be too great for the combined powers of France and Germany to overcome by themselves?"

It is also possible you meant to say,

"Is Germany willing to assert itself boldly as a sovereign power in it's own right, responsive to the will of her citizens rather then the influence of other nations?"

Then again, you might be trying to say,

"Should the current government set a precedent where any citizen of Germany could publicly disclose humiliating information that could potentially topple said government and shame the party so represented out of power for decades?"

There's just so many ways of phrasing your question. If you intend to open Pandora's Box, perhaps you should at least decide which of the things that are to fly out of it and into your face you are hoping to see first?

03.07.2013 15:51
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Helsworth
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Post: #4
RE: Should Germany grant Edward Snowden asylum?

StatlerNWaldorf Wrote:
Your question is too vaguely worded.

You could mean any number of things by that question.

You could, for example, mean, "Should Germany risk severing economic and political ties to the strongest economy on the planet for the sake of a cheap political stunt?"

Or, you might mean,

"Should Germany take insight from it's past experience with the Stasi to take a bold stand in favor of the fundamental right to privacy and against totalitarianism, not just domestically but on the world stage?"

Or, you perhaps mean,

"Should any member state of the EU risk alienating the power most capable and willing to bail it out in case the economic crisis present within the Union turns out to be too great for the combined powers of France and Germany to overcome by themselves?"

It is also possible you meant to say,

"Is Germany willing to assert itself boldly as a sovereign power in it's own right, responsive to the will of her citizens rather then the influence of other nations?"

Then again, you might be trying to say,

"Should the current government set a precedent where any citizen of Germany could publicly disclose humiliating information that could potentially topple said government and shame the party so represented out of power for decades?"

There's just so many ways of phrasing your question. If you intend to open Pandora's Box, perhaps you should at least decide which of the things that are to fly out of it and into your face you are hoping to see first?

Obviously, Sheep asked the forum members to vote yes or no without implying anything. The reasons for yes or no votes lie within the voter. And so far I haven't seen germans saying, the government shouldn't do this because we're afraid of the US. Legal and diplomatic issues have to be treated in that context, elsewise, it's a question of might vs right. You calling it a case of opening Pandora's box is a cheap attempt to portray the thing as some incredible/impardonable affront brought against the US government. It's not. And what's this bullshit about the US being able to bailout the EU? That's like saying China is able to bail out the US, or that Russia is able to bail out Japan. It is nonsensical. You don't even know what are the underlying problems within the eurozone's financial architecture. Those problems are strictly political (they lie within the arbitrary and neoliberal provisions of the Maastricht treaty), and can be solved without spending one ounce of physical resource, and with 0% help from foreign powers.
Warren Mosler (american economist) sums it up in this vid, if you care to watch. Though I'm sure you won't, cause you've got "better" things to do.


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This post was last modified: 03.07.2013 16:13 by Helsworth.

03.07.2013 16:07
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StatlerNWaldorf
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Post: #5
RE: Should Germany grant Edward Snowden asylum?

Helsworth Wrote:
blah blah blah America sucks blah blah blah here's a bunch of YouTube videos from fringe groups that nobody pays attention to because they're crackpots blah blah blah here's an economic theory that I swear Ars Regendi is based upon but if you try to implement it your state will fail within 5 ticks blah blah blah America sucks blah blah blah I don't need to document anything I claim to be true, I can just pull it out of my ass and if you tell me it's shit, I'll call you a troll blah blah blah something nasty about the United States blah blah blah long winded and pointless dissertation followed by a YouTube video of another long winded and pointless dissertation blah blah I can solve all the worlds problems and it's all so simple, I must be a fucking genius because I've got the answer that nobody else has managed to find in the millions of years humans have been on this Earth. And no I'm not arrogant, I'm just that fucking awesome. Blah blah blah something nasty about America blah blah blah I don't have any credentials at all blah blah blah

Blah blah blah. Nobody in their right mind would elect me to public office in real life but that's just because they're stupid and I know it all. blah blah blah blah, more YouTube videos from people you've never heard of blah blah blah America sucks blah blah don't talk to me about Romania. blah blah blah de blah blah blah. I'm rather good at writing fiction, it's just non-fiction that presents a challenge. blah blah blah something bad about America blah blah blah



Oh, shut up.

03.07.2013 16:18
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Helsworth
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Post: #6
RE: Should Germany grant Edward Snowden asylum?

StatlerNWaldorf Wrote:
[quote=Helsworth]
blah blah blah America sucks blah blah blah here's a bunch of YouTube videos from fringe groups that nobody pays attention to because they're crackpots blah blah blah here's an economic theory that I swear Ars Regendi is based upon but if you try to implement it your state will fail within 5 ticks blah blah blah America sucks blah blah blah I don't need to document anything I claim to be true, I can just pull it out of my ass and if you tell me it's shit, I'll call you a troll blah blah blah something nasty about the United States blah blah blah long winded and pointless dissertation followed by a YouTube video of another long winded and pointless dissertation blah blah I can solve all the worlds problems and it's all so simple, I must be a fucking genius because I've got the answer that nobody else has managed to find in the millions of years humans have been on this Earth. And no I'm not arrogant, I'm just that fucking awesome. Blah blah blah something nasty about America blah blah blah
Nobody in their right mind would elect me to public office in real life but that's just because they're stupid and I know it all. blah blah blah blah, more YouTube videos from people you've never heard of blah blah blah America sucks blah blah don't talk to me about Romania. blah blah blah de blah blah blah.

Another straw man from you. It never gets old. Hehe


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This post was last modified: 03.07.2013 16:34 by Helsworth.

03.07.2013 16:32
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StatlerNWaldorf
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Post: #7
RE: Should Germany grant Edward Snowden asylum?

Helsworth Wrote:

StatlerNWaldorf Wrote:
[quote=Helsworth]
blah blah blah America sucks blah blah blah here's a bunch of YouTube videos from fringe groups that nobody pays attention to because they're crackpots blah blah blah here's an economic theory that I swear Ars Regendi is based upon but if you try to implement it your state will fail within 5 ticks blah blah blah America sucks blah blah blah I don't need to document anything I claim to be true, I can just pull it out of my ass and if you tell me it's shit, I'll call you a troll blah blah blah something nasty about the United States blah blah blah long winded and pointless dissertation followed by a YouTube video of another long winded and pointless dissertation blah blah I can solve all the worlds problems and it's all so simple, I must be a fucking genius because I've got the answer that nobody else has managed to find in the millions of years humans have been on this Earth. And no I'm not arrogant, I'm just that fucking awesome. Blah blah blah something nasty about America blah blah blah
Nobody in their right mind would elect me to public office in real life but that's just because they're stupid and I know it all. blah blah blah blah, more YouTube videos from people you've never heard of blah blah blah America sucks blah blah don't talk to me about Romania. blah blah blah de blah blah blah.

Another straw man from you. It never gets old. Hehe


A Stage for Traitors was rather good. But you are completely full of it about MMT.

03.07.2013 16:38
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Helsworth
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Post: #8
RE: Should Germany grant Edward Snowden asylum?

StatlerNWaldorf Wrote:
You are completely full of it about MMT.

I didn't create MMT. I was a deficit dove before I became a deficit owl. The arguments of orthodox economics don't stand, not even when they're confronted with accounting reality. The only heterodox economics that makes sense are the post-keynesians. The austrians are completely parallel with reality.

If you dedicate a little time to read the arguments made by MMT - Warren Mosler, James Kenneth Galbraith, Dean Baker, Michael Hudson, Steve Keen, Bill Mitchell, Randy Wray and others - you'll understand what the difference is between a currency monopolist/issuer and a currency user.
Look at these two graphs. They represent accounting reality. The plus and minus balances out to 0. The government deficit equals the net savings of the private sector in a given year. "Government creates fiat by circulating currency in its expenditures, and it destroys it via taxation." Abba Lerner.



The graphs speak for themselves. Blue plus green equals red. Every surplus has a corresponding deficit, accounting 101. There are 3 elements to the modern economy: government, private sector, and foreign sector. All 3 cannot be in a surplus at the same time. Someone needs to be in deficit, so the others can be in surplus, and the only one able to run deficits without going bankrupt is the government/the currency issuer/the currency monopolist. The government is not a household or private company. Those are currency users. The currency sovereign makes the rules.

The only way the government can turn out a surplus in its budget, is by liquidating the assets of the private sector, making the private sector run a deficit. It's easy math. And if I were in your shoes, I'd be really happy that some of the most pertinent voices in heterodox economics are americans. The arguments of MMT are correct and you can cross-reference that with accounting figures.
And as for applying counter-cyclical policy to Ars-Regendi. I stated in the relevant thread that the template state which reacts best with that is the USA template. And while it's the most realistic simulation game out there, AR still has some arbitrary flaws, one of them being the state debt cap, which makes the populace hate you if you've hit 300% of GDP, regardless of how awesome the social stats are within that state. Another flaw in the simulation, which the devs have confirmed over and over again, is the odd behavior of the state as it gets older. The biggest flaw of the simulation is its ability to create uber budget surpluses without plunging the economy in abject depression. Such a thing doesn't exist. Even small budget surpluses cause recessions. You can look at old and recent history for this.
And I tested economic behavior with other players as well. For instance, MMT states that if the economy is already functioning at full output (unemployment is really close to 0%), if the government spends past that treshhold it's gonna create inflation. And that didn't happen in my USA template state simulation. The Ars Regendi citizens of my state were content with simply saving all that money, without spending it - cause that's what budget deficits represent, net financial assets for the private sector.

PS: I'm glad to know that you think my novel was ok. I really appreciate it. Wink


https://www.patreon.com/SerbanVCEnache

This post was last modified: 03.07.2013 18:41 by Helsworth.

03.07.2013 17:12
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Lustique
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Post: #9
RE: Should Germany grant Edward Snowden asylum?

No, I actually don't think that would be wise.

It's not that I think Snowden is not worthy of protection and a save haven (his current situation is just sad and a pathetic display of grovelling to the US) for the things he did for the European population (at least the proportion that cares about the stuff in question), but I don't think "we" would do him any favour by doing so, because I think the moment Snowden would touch German ground, "Mutti" would probably extradite him to the US of A faster than he could say "Schwarzwälderkirschtorte". At least that's what I would expect of her/the German government.
Secondly, I wouldn't be surprised if none of the things the NSA/FBI/CIA/... did were actually illegal, but rather approved and contractually agreed upon by the German government (probably in exchange for information the Verfassungsschutz is not allowed to gather, or something along the line). If that is indeed not the case, the BND probably is the saddest bunch of assclowns the world of intelligence ever had to suffer, or, equally bad, our politicians actually didn't know shit (because German intelligence didn't care to tell them), which would just be another kind of disaster.

Concerning relations to the US: I really couldn't care less. It would probably be more sensible to just further shift Germany's focus on economic relations to Asia, South America or even Africa than sacrificing our information integrity for things like the free trade agreement which would probably benefit the US way more than the EU anyway.

StatlerNWaldorf Wrote:
Your question is too vaguely worded.
[...]


How is that too vaguely worded? The question is perfectly clear. 

StatlerNWaldorf Wrote:
[...]You could, for example, mean, "Should Germany risk severing economic and political ties to the strongest economy on the planet for the sake of a cheap political stunt?"[...]


The strongest economy on the planet is actually the EU...


A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it.
03.07.2013 19:32
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Roger Mexico
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Post: #10
RE: Should Germany grant Edward Snowden asylum?

I hope someone grants him asylum. There's plenty of people in the US who would like to see him get safely beyond the government's reach. Obama and everyone in Congress should be forced to publicly debate the merits of their actions, and I think the best hope for that happening is to see another government officially grant Snowden the status of a protected political refugee.

The current drama over Snowden being a fugitive allows the government to keep the focus off of their own actions, and seeing him put on trial wouldn't be much better.

A successful asylum bid is the best possible outcome, for Snowden and for public debate about the surveillance issue. Now it's a question of who has the cajones (if anyone) to call Obama on his bullshit.

05.07.2013 09:49
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