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Syria: Western Involvement

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Roby Lambourne
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Post: #11
RE: Syria: Western Involvement

The UK clearly still is a world power, even in it's position as the worlds dustbin as everyone from god knows what back water dive they came from want to live here. Not to mention 2 Billion people still live in the Commonwealth. I am a very pro-domestic policy however and would prefer the UK to not get involved in any other nations conflict, unless we get something out of it for the long term, nor do I support the UK sending money abroad in the form of 'aid'. I noticed Cameron was quick to state money and aid will be sent to Syria, because he couldn't send missiles.

If Spain attacked Gibraltar, or Argentina attack the Falklands (again) I want to know my country is in a strong position to defend it's self and it's territories and win soundly. Not have it's finger up the arse of some dusty country's government in the middle east that has nothing at all to offer us other then wasting our time and money and possibly lives of our armed personnel.

If the UK were in a civil war, I 100% doubt the Syrian rebels would be the first people to come rushing to our side in military or monetary aid. I like to think an eye for an eye is how the world should work, if the rebels wouldn't assist us if the shoe was on the other foot, I am inclined to not support them now.


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04.09.2013 02:21
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Helsworth
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Post: #12
RE: Syria: Western Involvement

@Lambourne
In the Middle East it's not about gaining "allies", it's about installing preferential regimes which allow the transcorporates to get their hands on resources, namely oil and gas. It's all about geopolitics - the map with countries, regions, resource deposits, borders, influences et all. After WW2, the US picked up from where the british empire left off.

And as for you xenophobic comment about immigrants. The strongest reason people migrate in the first place, is to find a better life for themselves, their families and friends. If they could have that in their own countries, they wouldn't move now would they? Looking back to what british imperialism and corporatism did (seeding sectarian and segregationist conflicts, purging dissenters with machine guns, stealing resources and paying squat for them et all), in some of these "back waters" as you call them... no wonder people want to move to a better place. Neocolonialism is still alive and strong.
And to make you fell at ease, you should be aware that government expenditure is not "financed" by taxation. Government creates fiat by circulating money in its expenditures, and it destroys it via taxation. All horizontal transactions within the private sector net to 0. Only via vertical transactions (government deficit) can the economy grow during the course of a business cycle. While private banks create money at interest without being reserve constrained. The only constraint for them is their ability to give loans. Loans create deposits, and consequently reserves as well.
So long as there's unused resources, free labor (people able and willing to work), and unused production capacity - the government is either taxing too much, spending too little, or both.


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04.09.2013 08:36
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Roby Lambourne
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Post: #13
RE: Syria: Western Involvement

Helsworth Wrote:
@Lambourne
In the Middle East it's not about gaining "allies", it's about installing preferential regimes which allow the transcorporates to get their hands on resources, namely oil and gas. It's all about geopolitics - the map with countries, regions, resource deposits, borders, influences et all. After WW2, the US picked up from where the british empire left off.

And as for you xenophobic comment about immigrants. The strongest reason people migrate in the first place, is to find a better life for themselves, their families and friends. If they could have that in their own countries, they wouldn't move now would they? Looking back to what british imperialism and corporatism did (seeding sectarian and segregationist conflicts, purging dissenters with machine guns, stealing resources and paying squat for them et all), in some of these "back waters" as you call them... no wonder people want to move to a better place. Neocolonialism is still alive and strong.
And to make you fell at ease, you should be aware that government expenditure is not "financed" by taxation. Government creates fiat by circulating money in its expenditures, and it destroys it via taxation. All horizontal transactions within the private sector net to 0. Only via vertical transactions (government deficit) can the economy grow during the course of a business cycle. While private banks create money at interest without being reserve constrained. The only constraint for them is their ability to give loans. Loans create deposits, and consequently reserves as well.
So long as there's unused resources, free labor (people able and willing to work), and unused production capacity - the government is either taxing too much, spending too little, or both.


Nations, such as the US and UK, need allies in the country to use as puppets for their bidding for the gain of oil and gas etc. As was seen in Iraq (coalition Provisional Authority, Iraqi Transitional Government and Ghazi Mashal Ajil al-Yawer) and Afghanistan with support from the Afghan leader Hamid Karzai (President and Chairman of a transitional administration)

I believe that is one of the reason there are not troops in an invasion of Pakistan, yet, and why there is a presence of shadowy cooperation ,especially in information about Bin Laden and the suspected assistance of Government agencies working with terrorist cells, between the Pakistan leadership and NATO nations. So with Syria, they would need an ally in charge so clearly if the Syrian rebels win the war with aid of the US/France etc, it will be America's choosing who is the new leader of Syria after Assad. Maybe then there will be visible signs in oil and petrol prices dropping, for a while at least. I do agree it has to do with borders, I think this is just the prelude to an eventual war with Iran, now that is something I would support, but not by getting involved with Syria just to achieve that goal against Iran.

Also my comments about immigrants were not xenophobic, or racist or offensive of political incorrect or anything like that before you get that idea into your head. People jump the gun so quickly when someone mentions that immigration is a massive failure. I understand why people emigrate but for one the rule of asylum seeking intend for refugees to only seek refuge in the closet stable country to the one they just left, and to one day return to it. Also if you notice in history, the vast majority of countries didn't go to crap with civil wars etc until they declared independence from the British Empire, it was the British Empire that kept order even if cases of repression were involved (including Ireland). If the British Empire still had the territory it had in it's height, many of the conflicts that have existed through the 20th and 21st century wouldn't of existed or at least wouldn't of escalated when involving sectarian, segregationist and separatist purposes. It is for the brash demand for self-sovereignty by some countries that have left grey areas along borders such as Isreal and Palestine that has left them in conflict or uneasy stalemate. But maybe I am just being bias and wishfully thinking and perhaps in the minority but it seems colonialism was highly beneficial at preventing division between countries that seem to enjoy violence with themselves and each other.

I am not very good at the finance side of government and I won't pretend I am so I am glad you have provided insight on things but it has always being my understanding all the money the government has is provided by the public it governs be it housing tax, council tax or corporate tax etc. But the point of the argument is, I don't believe the UK should be involving themselves in Syria (or other nations at war that is not directly involving us) either with money, asylum, weapons for them to use or military intervention. I am all for them killing each other, but I am not for giving them the means to do it at our expense, nor the means to prevent it nor the means to escalate it from outside forces.


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This post was last modified: 06.09.2013 00:48 by Roby Lambourne.

06.09.2013 00:44
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Helsworth
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Post: #14
RE: Syria: Western Involvement

I agree with you on your non-interventionist stance. If this policy of non-intervention would have been applied from the start by the west, that civil war in Syria would have been ended by now.

As for the money part. The orthodox view on economics has always been false and fraudulent. The heterodox view states things exactly as they are. Double-entry bookkeeping is not someone's opinion.

All money used by the public, comes from the government. Money, be it gold coins of a certain standard, weight, and depiction, be it banknotes backed backed by metals or pegged to other currency, or be they fiat notes - is never a commodity. It's a liability issued by the government (minted and/or printed). Money is public property; and it should be used for public purpose.
"Government creates fiat by circulating currency in its expenditures, and it destroys it via taxation." Abba Lerner.

Private banks can create money at interest, but their ability in doing so is limited only by their capital and the consumer's ability to take on loans.
Loans create deposits. It's a horizontal transaction within the private sector, and the net between the two sides (minus and plus, liability and asset, loan and deposit) is 0.
Taxation creates unemployment of money paid work. Thus, public expenditure employs people by giving them jobs in paid money.
The public has 3 desires: to pay taxes, to pay money for their own livelihood (paying bills, buying food, tv sets, videogames, medical care etc), and they desire to net save.
With a balanced foreign sector (exports - imports = 0), the government deficit equals the net surplus of the private sector in a given year.
(S-I)+(G-T)+(X-M)=0
So long as you have unused resources, free labor (people able and willing to work) and spare production capacity, the government is either taxing too much, spending too little, or both. And thus, unemployment is a monetary phenomenon.
Production is driven by aggregate demand. If you can't buy, I can't sell. If I can't sell, I can't produce. Ergo I'm going to lay off workers until I'm able to run a profit on slim sales.
Ask any business owner, and the nr 1 reason for why he's/she's not hiring new workers is SALES. Things like high taxes or the high cost of a business loan are on the sidelines.
That's why trickle down theory, or as Galbraith put it, horse shit and sparrow theory, is utter ideological garbage.
And as for public debt. A government with monetary sovereignty (such as the UK), indebted in its own currency cannot go bankrupt. Governments don't issue public debt out of some implacable necessity. Issuing debt is a leftover custom from the gold standard period. Public debt serves several functions, such as controlling short term interest rates in the market, and providing a vehicle for institutional savings. But it does NOT finance the government's budget. And government is not obliged to issue it, if it doesn't want to.
Thomas Edison, in his days, asked himself. Why must the government fatten bankers by giving them bonds at interest, instead of paying debt free currency to the citizens? Edison understood how fiat money worked.

I will conclude with the most important thing. You'd ask yourself, why then do we have to pay taxes? Answer. Because a government who has lost its ability to tax its own currency, destroys the value of that currency. Through taxation, the government creates the demand for its own money, over which it has monopoly to issue.


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This post was last modified: 06.09.2013 09:00 by Helsworth.

06.09.2013 06:26
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