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Variable AP-Kosten / Variable AP costs

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Lord Alexander
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Post: #81
RE: Variable AP-Kosten / Variable AP costs

Why do you want to use something else than Action Points? I already proposed in this thread one possible way to make the public speeches and foreign visits more attractive not at the expense of the old approach to the Reform Propaganda.

And if the goal is to protect new players from the dangers of Planned Economy and Anarcho-Capitalism, then the best solution is to place appropriate warnings into their in-game descriptions.

This post was last modified: 24.02.2013 23:36 by Lord Alexander.

24.02.2013 23:29
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Lyu
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Post: #82
RE: Variable AP-Kosten / Variable AP costs

Lord Alexander Wrote:
Why do you want to use something else than Action Points?


I personally don't want anything, I usually wait for influence to increase and do a reform without propaganda or just one or two.
YOU wanted an easier access to reforms at the beginning of the game and that was just an idea to make that possible. I don't know how to get the impression that my main goal was additional protection for new players (which is not needed unless the system is changed according to my proposition, which is not my goal)
Really, how carefully do you read my posts?

This post was last modified: 25.02.2013 00:28 by Lyu.

25.02.2013 00:27
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Rising Phoenix
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Post: #83
RE: Variable AP-Kosten / Variable AP costs

Lyu Wrote:
I don't know how to get the impression that my main goal was additional protection for new players (which is not needed unless the system is changed according to my proposition, which is not my goal)
Really, how carefully do you read my posts?

I too read your posts and got your intended message. However, Lord Alexander made his case:

Lord Alexander Wrote:
Why do you want to use something else than Action Points? I already proposed in this thread one possible way to make the public speeches and foreign visits more attractive not at the expense of the old approach to the Reform Propaganda.

I agree with this completely.

Lord Alexander Wrote:
And if the goal is to protect new players from the dangers of Planned Economy and Anarcho-Capitalism, then the best solution is to place appropriate warnings into their in-game descriptions.

Exactly! Right now if a lucky newbie got a long shot with a U.S.A. template, he/she could easily make an horrible mistake - namely, implementing central planning, anarcho-capitalism or heck, even liberalism at that later stage of the game.

25.02.2013 01:34
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Lord Alexander
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Post: #84
RE: Variable AP-Kosten / Variable AP costs

Lyu Wrote:

Lord Alexander Wrote:
Why do you want to use something else than Action Points?


I personally don't want anything, I usually wait for influence to increase and do a reform without propaganda or just one or two.
YOU wanted an easier access to reforms at the beginning of the game and that was just an idea to make that possible. I don't know how to get the impression that my main goal was additional protection for new players (which is not needed unless the system is changed according to my proposition, which is not my goal)
Really, how carefully do you read my posts?

(emphasis mine)

No, my proposal is to reinstate the old approach to the Reform Propaganda. Please read my posts carefully.

I got the impression that one of your goals was the protection of the new players because it was one of the two your arguments against my proposal.

Your first argument was that now you got incentive to use other options that cost Action Points:

Lyu Wrote:
Edit: Also, Sheep is right. I barely used the other options at all until now. And even when I did, I did it with the feeling that the APs were wasted..

And your second argument was that it is not wise to give to the new players the easy access to Planned Economy and Anarcho-Capitalism because these Reforms are dangerous:

Lyu Wrote:
Admittedly, Classic mode is supposed to be more of an "sandbox" character, so the number of cases is most probably higher there. And I totally understand if and older player wants to experiment.. I did it myself, too. On the other hand, it's not wise to give a new player easy access to the reforms we discuss here, because their effects are also not easy to handle. It's already bad enough that they often get post-commies in the state lottery in the beginning of a world..
So, what about this: It should be possible to convert a certain amount of experience points into Reform Propagandas (high enough that you have to "earn" it), but in Classic states only. This way, it would be possible to start with Planned Economy very early on to play around with it, but only if the player already had a decent amount of playtime with the normal setup and thus deserves a little variation to avoid getting bored.
Of course, we can't decide that, but I think I would like it. :3

(emphasis mine)

I simply responded to your arguments against my proposal.

This post was last modified: 25.02.2013 03:40 by Lord Alexander.

25.02.2013 03:33
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Lyu
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Post: #85
RE: Variable AP-Kosten / Variable AP costs

Lord Alexander Wrote:

Lyu Wrote:

Lord Alexander Wrote:
Why do you want to use something else than Action Points?

[...]YOU wanted an easier access to reforms at the beginning of the game [...]

(emphasis mine)

No, my proposal is to reinstate the old approach to the Reform Propaganda. Please read my posts carefully.


I actually know, it's just that your argument was that..

Lord Alexander Wrote:
... it is important to have the ability to introduce these Reforms early on. They greatly modify the long-term behavior of economic model, and as a result are allowing very different gameplay. Implementing them at some later point does not lead to the same effect because at that point the state is usually already more or less stabilized, so the Regent only will need to resolve the short-term consequences of the Reform, and then everything will go back to blissful (and boring) stability.


Also, you said that if we want to be realistic, Planned Economy should be implemented within few years or never at all, or something like that.

Sorry I misinterpreted that "early on" as the secret wish to make these reforms more accessible, because let's be serious, Planned Economy already often isn't a thing to get before half of a world's timespan is over even with your praised old AP system (especially when we talk about third-world-templates).
If you really don't want it sooner, okay. My fault.

Lord Alexander Wrote:
I got the impression that one of your goals was the protection of the new players because it was one of the two your arguments against my proposal.


That argument was in a paragraph about MY proposal, not YOURS. Tongue
It has nothing to do with yours. After all, what you propose still does not make achieving these reforms "easy" to access, does it? Only "doable with some planning", but that's what they already are and still will be in the old and new system.
(Of course I don't want to deliberately let new players to fall into traps either, but I don't think that there is great danger of this in the current system at least in this point)


But why are we nitpicking now? I made a proposal to tend to the wish of better early customization of a state (which might or might not be your goal. I just would understand it), you don't like it, fine.
I don't NEED it as well, I'm totally okay with the new system. So let's forget it.. Smile


@Phoenix: Liberalism is a great late-game-reform. Tongue

25.02.2013 04:43
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Rising Phoenix
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Post: #86
RE: Variable AP-Kosten / Variable AP costs

Lyu Wrote:
@Phoenix: Liberalism is a great late-game-reform. Tongue

Unless you are not prepared for it - as a new player could very well not be. The results can at best reduce the overall well-being of the state, at worst "crash" it completely (specially the regent's popularity).

25.02.2013 04:56
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Lord Alexander
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Post: #87
RE: Variable AP-Kosten / Variable AP costs

Lyu Wrote:
Sorry I misinterpreted that "early on" as the secret wish to make these reforms more accessible, because let's be serious, Planned Economy already often isn't a thing to get before half of a world's timespan is over even with your praised old AP system (especially when we talk about third-world-templates).
If you really don't want it sooner, okay. My fault.

Quote:
After all, what you propose still does not make achieving these reforms "easy" to access, does it? Only "doable with some planning", but that's what they already are and still will be in the old and new system.

Old approach was well balanced in the aspect of accessibility of Reforms. It was not very easy and not very hard to implement desired Reforms. New system has destroyed this balance, that is why I propose to restore it. I already explained why I believe that your assertion that there is little difference between the accessibility of Reforms under the old and new approaches is not correct.

Quote:
But why are we nitpicking now? I made a proposal to tend to the wish of better early customization of a state (which might or might not be your goal. I just would understand it), you don't like it, fine.
I don't NEED it as well, I'm totally okay with the new system. So let's forget it.. Smile

Allow me to explain why I believe that your proposal is worse than mine. There are three reasons:

  1. Its implementation would require more coding.
  2. It would introduce unnecessary discrimination against new players.
  3. There is simply no reason to use one approach to the Reform Propaganda inside the "World" game mode and another approach inside the "Classic" game mode.

25.02.2013 05:55
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Lyu
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Post: #88
RE: Variable AP-Kosten / Variable AP costs

Thanks for repeating that we don't need to discuss it further, even though the listed reasons are a little amusing.

25.02.2013 08:03
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Helsworth
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Post: #89
RE: Variable AP-Kosten / Variable AP costs

There's no need for anyone to be snide. Lord Alexander expressed his view and the devs will take into consideration or not.


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25.02.2013 08:50
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Lord Alexander
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Post: #90
RE: Variable AP-Kosten / Variable AP costs

Lyu Wrote:
Thanks for repeating that we don't need to discuss it further, even though the listed reasons are a little amusing.

Excuse me? I do not understand why are you reacting like this. Is it something that I said? I am sorry if something that I said has offended you. It was not my intention at all. Sad

This post was last modified: 25.02.2013 09:29 by Lord Alexander.

25.02.2013 09:22
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