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Why doesn't the US stop exporting aggregate demand, and start importing some?

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Helsworth
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Post: #1
Why doesn't the US stop exporting aggregate demand, and start importing some?

I for one think that the developed countries should start producing for developing and third world countries. The former have sucked on their wealth enough for centuries; they should begin giving something in return, like electricity, medical equipment, and most especially loans in foreign currency, in order to create aggregate demand for their exports.
This was how the US made post WW2 torn Europe able to assimilate its exports. It loaned them the dollars to buy american goods and it also loaned them the money to pay off the interest on the aforementioned loans.
Making 3rd world and developing countries able to assimilate american exports would create full employment in the USA. By creating aggregate demand in these countries, american producers would be able to sell their wares. This makes them hire more people in order to expand production.
The world's poor would be able to catch up with the rest of the developed countries. Increased living standards will bring with it a lowering of birth rates, a falling in disease and illiteracy, a fall in crime and other major conflicts, including a fall in terrorism; not to mention a fall in religiousness and superstitionism.
God knows who don't need more racists, xenophobes, homophobes, creationists unable to explain the dinosaurs (among many other things), and antiabortion folk.

This is just my idea. This is what I'd do if I were in charge of the US. And it's something the US has done in the past, and was extremely successful in carrying it out. Lets have full employment in the US, and this output be focused on 3rd world and developing countries.


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05.04.2013 21:18
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spitefire
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Post: #2
RE: Why doesn't the US stop exporting aggregate demand, and start importing some?

Any good idea that can be come up with will not matter because at the moment the established powers that hold an ever diminishing sway on the nation is bent on pushing America back into the dirt if America is to adopt any plans that would improve it's worsening condition it would have to be done on a local basis.

This is why from my point of view that highly centralized and large governments are a threat, not because they can't do good but because when things go bad it goes bad faster with fewer number of leaders to bribe/coerce/blackmail.

America is suffer the plague of large central government and when it finishes tipping over it will hurt a lot more people unless the smaller local government structure in as many states as possible is sufficiently activated to save the savable, we have gotten so far away from the ideas of self reliance that large numbers of people have forgotten how and end up leaning more and more on a government in decline.

I am not saying your idea is bad i am just saying America is not in a position to try it out until much later or much reform, hopefully we do not have to engage in reform the bloody way.

06.04.2013 01:00
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Burz
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Post: #3
RE: Why doesn't the US stop exporting aggregate demand, and start importing some?

Because they want to keep everyone poor. I think you know this and are just asking stupid questions.

06.04.2013 01:09
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Helsworth
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Post: #4
RE: Why doesn't the US stop exporting aggregate demand, and start importing some?

Well, I'd say the problem is not the government, the problem is Congress, the media, and conventional wisdom instilled in the minds of the population at large. Both the right and left DON'T understand accounting 101. They don't have a clue about how modern money and how the modern economy works. They believe in myths, and even if they mean well, be they policy-makers or ordinary citizen activists, they're contributing to the poverty creation, because they don't understand that the real debt problem is the household debt, not the government's.
The republicans accuse the liberal for being "evil" keynesians, but the republicans are uber keynesian vis-a-vis military spending. Do I smell hypocrisy? How about the democrats, the deficit doves, who are basically arguing the same lies as the republicans. When Obama says, we don't have enough money or enough money left, he's spewing a clearly verifiable lie. You have Ron Paul who gets foreign policy right, but gets economics 180 degrees completely wrong.
It's not government that's the problem. It's public. And like almost everywhere, to quote George Carlin, the public sucks!


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06.04.2013 01:16
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Roger Mexico
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Post: #5
RE: Why doesn't the US stop exporting aggregate demand, and start importing some?

I'm not sure the developing world wants to start importing more first world manufactures. Seems like that's exactly what they don't want, in fact, at least some of the major ones. (BRICS etc) I don't know about Brazil, or China anymore thanks to One Child policy, but I think India is very concerned about the problem of a swelling population in need of jobs. I assume they'd rather manufacture for their own markets as much as possible, and China has been a standout case of happily allowing American demand to put Chinese citizens into factories instead of milling around getting pissed off at the government about their farms getting bulldozed or the shortage of wives.

I don't see them being keen to export what demand they have to offer, in other words. In fact I think that was one of the sore points of the colonial era--being forced to ship all your iron or lumber or cotton or whatever to Britain or France, where it was put to use employing French or British workers to produce finished consumer goods which were then shipped back to your country so you could be forced to buy them. (At inflated monopoly prices, despite the cripplingly low wages you earned if you were "lucky" enough to have a job on an export fruit plantation or an export iron mine.)

The Chinese are presently doing the same thing to the American Pacific Northwest. Whole communities are collapsing because lumber mills are closing down. Meanwhile exports of raw logs to China are increasing, and so are imports of wooden furniture from China. I think the Chinese know exactly what they're doing--pretty much every single "developed" country got that way by manufacturing its own consumer goods and then typically starting to manufacture them for export also --and they presumably don't have any intention to stop. I imagine they occasionally get a good chuckle out of the historical irony of it. (They've made a banana republic out of the world's foremost military power--even I think that's funny and I have to live here.)

Why do our politicians allow this? I don't know. Maybe because they're all owned by Wall Street bankers and Wall Street isn't short of work yet because, for the moment, the Chinese are still plenty interested in importing US dollars?

06.04.2013 04:03
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Burz
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Post: #6
RE: Why doesn't the US stop exporting aggregate demand, and start importing some?

Helsworth Wrote:
Well, I'd say the problem is not the government, the problem is Congress, the media, and conventional wisdom instilled in the minds of the population at large. Both the right and left DON'T understand accounting 101.

The U.S. people are stupid sociopaths, the U.S. government are smart sociopaths. Don't bullshit yourself, only monsters are capable of what the U.S. people are capable of. Washington is concentrated evil, nothing else.

Helsworth Wrote:
Both the right and left DON'T understand accounting 101.

They know that they want money and power.

Helsworth Wrote:
and even if they mean well,

????????

Helsworth Wrote:
The republicans accuse the liberal for being "evil" keynesians, but the republicans are uber keynesian vis-a-vis military spending. Do I smell hypocrisy?


No, you smell money-making. They set out to lie and then they do so. Admittedly, some of them may be a delusional.

This post was last modified: 06.04.2013 06:54 by Burz.

06.04.2013 06:49
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BaktoMakhno
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Post: #7
RE: Why doesn't the US stop exporting aggregate demand, and start importing some?

Helsworth Wrote:
Well, I'd say the problem is not the government, the problem is Congress, the media, and conventional wisdom instilled in the minds of the population at large. Both the right and left DON'T understand accounting 101. They don't have a clue about how modern money and how the modern economy works. They believe in myths, and even if they mean well, be they policy-makers or ordinary citizen activists, they're contributing to the poverty creation, because they don't understand that the real debt problem is the household debt, not the government's.

Personally I think governments know exactly what they are doing. They aren't stupid, they are evil.

We did more or less what you and I advocate in the 50s, 60s. Average growth was 3.4% (compared to 2.8% in the 70s, 1.4% in the 80s, 1% in the 90s). Problem with the old system was that prosperity and high employment means people feel secure, gain self respect and start to get uppity. Can't have that. A recession is preferable. Read the trilateral commission report 'on the governability of democratic societies' - it says exactly this.

Liberalization happened to keep people insecure and frightened. No one in power believed their propaganda about it being more efficient. Talk about public debt is just a way to sell austerity. From a ruling class perspective private debt is wonderful - it keeps people in line. Its even better than taxes - you can get the individuals targeted to feel responsible!

Exporting aggregate demand would improve living standards in the countries involved. This is a bad move if you are trying to run an empire.


"The beauty of free trade is that 1 and 1 can be 3" - Titian

"There is no conversation more boring than one where Globaltom speaks" - Triniterias

This post was last modified: 06.04.2013 11:08 by BaktoMakhno.

06.04.2013 11:05
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Helsworth
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Post: #8
RE: Why doesn't the US stop exporting aggregate demand, and start importing some?

@Roger Mexico
Well, that's how war crippled Europe rebuilt so quickly. The US recycled its surplus into it, because the american administration feared another great depression. They had all that manufacturing capability, and they required one thing to keep it producing, namely aggregate demand.
There's no supply reason for the world's poverty today. The poverty is caused by unjust distribution of wealth, not by underproduction. Getting rid of antiquated technology would be a huge leap to dealing with many problems, but of course, that means changing the status quo, and the old establishments won't like it one bit.
But I think 3rd world countries and developing countries would benefit a great deal from importing capital goods from the US among other things, as well as technology.
The only way 3rd world and developing countries are going to achieve a desired self-sufficiency, is if they focus on growing their own domestic markets. When your domestic producers have a domestic market to fuel their requirement for demand, their existence won't be solely dependent on export markets.
Of course I'm not suggesting that the US start to export food to these countries at dumping prices. They should export agricultural machine tools, irrigation systems, tractors, hospital/medical equipment, engines etc. Things which help build the economy of a sovereign nation state.

@Burz
The average guy who's an austrian, most of the times thinks he's fighting the good fight against shady bankers and evil big government, and evil masonic/jewish/atheist socialism. Of course they're mired in abject ignorance, but they do mean well... Hehe

@Bakto
I'll have to read that report.
I think you mean importing aggregate demand. Wink From the standpoint of the empire, exporting aggregate demand and importing goods is a sound way to keep the empire's resources unused and to stock up on them, even at the cost of living with unemployment, with lower wages, with fewer benefits, with more working hours. That keeps the rest of society divided as to who is to blame: republicans, democrats, socialists, deficit hawks, creationists, atheists, gays, blacks, foreigners, red necks, fundamentalists, Wall-Street, regulations, deregulation, capitalism, socialism et all.
While I have no doubt that there are evil folk running and coordinating these policies, I also don't have any doubt that there are many clueless sods in government, who don't know shit about economics. And these people are indoctrinated with neoliberal myths.


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This post was last modified: 06.04.2013 11:27 by Helsworth.

06.04.2013 11:18
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BaktoMakhno
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Post: #9
RE: Why doesn't the US stop exporting aggregate demand, and start importing some?

Roger Mexico Wrote:
Why do our politicians allow this? I don't know. Maybe because they're all owned by Wall Street bankers and Wall Street isn't short of work yet because, for the moment, the Chinese are still plenty interested in importing US dollars?

The US government wants unemployment to rise. This enables them to lower wages and living standards, letting their business friends get a bigger slice of the economic pie. To quote economist Joan Robinson:

Joan Robinson Wrote:
The first function of unemployment (which has always existed in open or disguised forms) is that it maintains the authority of master over man. The master has normally been in a position to say: “If you don’t want the job, there are plenty of others who do.” When the man can say: “If you don’t want to employ me, there are plenty of others who will,” the situation is radically altered.”


China will never be a threat to the western ruling class. War has always been the white mans game. Anytime the Us government chooses it can stamp on Chinas throat by starving it of resources. What do you think Iraq and Libya were about?


"The beauty of free trade is that 1 and 1 can be 3" - Titian

"There is no conversation more boring than one where Globaltom speaks" - Triniterias
06.04.2013 11:21
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Roger Mexico
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Post: #10
RE: Why doesn't the US stop exporting aggregate demand, and start importing some?

Helsworth Wrote:
@Roger Mexico
Well, that's how war crippled Europe rebuilt so quickly. The US recycled its surplus into it, because the american administration feared another great depression. They had all that manufacturing capability, and they required one thing to keep it producing, namely aggregate demand.
There's no supply reason for the world's poverty today. The poverty is caused by unjust distribution of wealth, not by underproduction. Getting rid of antiquated technology would be a huge leap to dealing with many problems, but of course, that means changing the status quo, and the old establishments won't like it one bit.
But I think 3rd world countries and developing countries would benefit a great deal from importing capital goods from the US among other things, as well as technology.
The only way 3rd world and developing countries are going to achieve a desired self-sufficiency, is if they focus on growing their own domestic markets. When your domestic producers have a domestic market to fuel their requirement for demand, their existence won't be solely dependent on export markets.
Of course I'm not suggesting that the US start to export food to these countries at dumping prices. They should export agricultural machine tools, irrigation systems, tractors, hospital/medical equipment, engines etc. Things which help build the economy of a sovereign nation state.

@Burz
The average guy who's an austrian, most of the times thinks he's fighting the good fight against shady bankers and evil big government, and evil masonic/jewish/atheist socialism. Of course they're mired in abject ignorance, but they do mean well... Hehe

@Bakto
I'll have to read that report.
I think you mean importing aggregate demand. Wink From the standpoint of the empire, exporting aggregate demand and importing goods is a sound way to keep the empire's resources unused and to stock up on them, even at the cost of living with unemployment, with lower wages, with fewer benefits, with more working hours. That keeps the rest of society divided as to who is to blame: republicans, democrats, socialists, deficit hawks, creationists, atheists, gays, blacks, foreigners, red necks, fundamentalists, Wall-Street, regulations, deregulation, capitalism, socialism et all.
While I have no doubt that there are evil folk running and coordinating these policies, I also don't have any doubt that there are many clueless sods inthe government, who don't know shit about economics. And these people are indoctrinated with neoliberal myths.


Well, based on what I hear from friends who have spent time living in China, the Chinese are on to the tech game, too. There's a large job market there, legally dubious but quietly condoned by the state, in reverse engineering anything that comes into the country by way of production operations outsourced by other countries. It's a major side benefit of building the computers that American companies design for sale to American consumers. I mostly hear these stories from Americans who work in IT fields, so their bias is obvious, but they're describing huge software farms where hundreds of programmers spend most of their time tweaking code lifted from foreign products.

I'm just saying I think the more rapidly "emerging" economies know exactly what they're doing--happily absorbing the rush of capital they can get from developed states who want to substitute cheap imports for domestic production. They can convert that into infrastructure on their own if they're smart about it, meaning they can eventually stop being dependent on foreigners for anything but export demand.

It's like that thing Marx or Lenin said about how the capitalists would happily sell the rope which would be used to hang them.

06.04.2013 19:36
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